In the OT, 2Mac.15:11-14, we learn that through the assistance of 2 OT Saints, Onias and Jeremiah, Judas Maccabeus, a general fighting against Greek occupation and his fighters win the battle. Tobias 12:12 is another time when the Angel Raphael reveals that God sent him to heal the couple Tobit and Sarah after they pray.

The problem with using scriptures from the apocrypha is that the Catholic church is the only organization that recognizes them as scripture - no other christian denomination does.

So trying to prove your point through apocryphal scriptures is pretty pointless if you're the only one here who believes in those books. It's like when I try to defend my POV through the Book of Mormon. Doesn't fly with the born-agains.

The problem with using scriptures from the apocrypha is that the Catholic church is the only organization that recognizes them as scripture - no other christian denomination does.

Not so. Those books of the Apocrypha known as the Deuterocanonical books are accepted as scripture by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (those in communion with the Patriarch of Alexandria), which together make up 2/3 of those in the world who call themselves Christians.

The early church was much divided on which books were or were not canonical; these questions did not suddenly arise at the time of the Reformation. In fact, certain books of the New Testament, now accepted as canonical by virtually all Christians, were originally held by some early Christians to be dubious. These include the Book of Hebrews, The Epistle of Jude and Revelations. Interestingly, one reason that the Epistle of Jude was considered suspect is that it quotes from the Book of Enoch as if it were scripture - a book not considered canonical by any of the major churches today.

At the end of the day, if even those who wrote the books of the Bible were unsure of what was 'canonical' (a concept that anyway only really came into play in the era of the Church Councils), then it is hard to see how it is possible to have any firm and binding opinion on the matter. As ever, it is a question that is only of burning interest to those obsessed by the notion of Biblical inerrancy - but that's an argument that's been had before - and will doubtless come round and round again.

Not so. Those books of the Apocrypha known as the Deuterocanonical books are accepted as scripture by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (those in communion with the Patriarch of Alexandria), which together make up 2/3 of those in the world who call themselves Christians.

Okay. I concede the point. But . . . I'm stuck in the "America" mindset, and here, the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox aren't very big, consequently in the US the Catholics are the big ones here.

Obviously, I think the construction of the "canon" to be a little funny in the first place. The hard-core protestants who hate the Catholic church so much only have the Bible that they have today because of them.

But then . . . I'm not the usual protestant, being Mormon and all. I'm not confined to the "canon" . . .

San Cho-

Really? I don't remember ever reading that. Could ya show me a reference? I'm curious to see it.

You will see them throughout the book of revelations, and in particular Rev 5:8.

Also, remember St John the Baptist? He was the first to baptize people, not to mention Christ himself into Christianity. I'm not to certain you can intercede at any greater level.

Would you agree that St John the apostle interceded on our behalves nearly all his life?

We can go on and on with this.

So trying to prove your point through apocryphal scriptures is pretty pointless if you're the only one here who believes in those books.

This seems a bit erroneous to me as well. The last I saw, there are 1.1 billion Catholics worldwide, making Catholicism the largest religious organization in the world.

Also, to my knowledge, there are 2.1 billion Christians worldwide. If I'm not mistaken, more than half of all Christians are in fact Catholics.

So you see, when you say "the only one to believe" you might be better off saying that "most agree", making the statement that "it's pointless" quite weak, because on the contrary its quite a large point. In fact, its the largest single point of any religious body in the world.

But then . . . I'm not the usual protestant, being Mormon and all. I'm not confined to the "canon"

Ironically, you challenge a book such as the Apocrypha, yet the book of Mormon holds the most narrow following in all Christianity.

they are walking among us, and may be headed to your door soon. Let them in. You'll be glad you did.

hahahah funny SC.....*wink* been there....done that.

Fact be known, it's my beliefe that all the saints are with god, and thus alive. Are there any dead saints?

ALL? so when Paul was writing to the saints....he was writing to....Rome in heaven?

Scripture is quite clear. The Saints are those walking with God....here or there.

think it is interesting that KFC says the Bible translates itself, and that we can trust the holy spirit to guide us to know what is inerrant. Yet... here we have two obviously devout people, with very different interpretations of the same book.

and Baker, what scriptures were cited to show what I wrote above was wrong?

trust God. I don't trust man.

me too.

By your reading of the New Testament, all believers are "saints"? So, restated, "saints" are those of us living on earth who are professed "believers"? According to this definition, all believers are saints. When put that way, it seems to me like a huge devaluation of what I've always understood as sanctity or sainthood.

EXACTLY!! But not "professed" believers. Genuine believers. What you understand Lula is what you've been taught. Look at the scriptures. What do you think they mean?

To be a Saint, one must believe, yes, and also one must practice the social, theological and cardinal virtues

where do you find this in scripture?

1. The Apoc. 6:9-11----this is where we see the souls of the marytrs beneath the altar of God cry out for judgment and revenge...

in context...this was when the fifth seal was opened. When did this happen? You may want to read about the first 4 seals first tho.

3. 1St.Peter 4:6---Jesus preached to the dead after His Death and before His Resurrection.

this would contradict many other scriptures. There is no other chance (according to scriptures) after we die for eternity. Our decision is made here. this verse you refer to are deceased Christians. The gospel was preached to those martyrs now dead. They were judged in the flesh and condemned to martyrdom according to human standards but are now alive in the spirit after death. Here it is..

"For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh but live according to God in the spirit."

St.Luke 16:19-31.

you're actually picking one of my favorites. Look at that story very closely. What you see is one is in hell; the other in Paradise (not heaven). Christ had not died yet. Paradise was emptied when Christ died. Remember what he said to the thief on the cross? "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Anyhow it's quite clear in Luke 16 that no one can go back to earth, no one can intercede on their live family's behalf. Jesus said quite clearly that there is a wide gulf fixed between. I believe they have no idea what's going on down here. If they did, they could not be happy in the presence of God. No, they are being protected from this place. They are in the land of the living. It is we who are in the land of the dead.

I disagree. Catholics pray to Saints and Angels and ask for their help for the same reason they ask Christians on earth to pray for them and assist them in other ways. It pleases God as members of Christ's Body 1Cor. 12:12-27.

this has nothing to do with the subject matter. This is a section on spiritual gifts given to the Christians in the church. Nothing to do with praying for or to dead people and nothing to do with angels either.

You cannot find anywhere in scripture where we are taught to pray for the dead. Or where the dead pray for us. Nowhere. The scripture you point to in Luke 16 doesn't show that. In fact it shows the opposite.

I like what Jesus said there...

"And he said Nay, Father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said to him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead."

Basically saying people who ignore the written Word will not be convinced even if someone rose from the dead. Just as relevant today as then. Nothing changes. nothing new under the sun.

Basically what we see also in that passage is

1. conscience existence after death
2. The reality and torment of hell
3. no second chance after death
4. the impossibility of the dead communicating with the living.

I think it's great Lula you're digging into scripture. Just know it's a lifetime of study and the more you start digging the more you start seeing...the more you start digging even faster.

ALL? so when Paul was writing to the saints....he was writing to....Rome in heaven?

With God in a rhetorical sense, as I and you are with God.

Scripture is quite clear. The Saints are those walking with God....here or there.

If you mean here or there in the sense of on earth or in heaven, than I don't believe we are in disagreement. If I led you to believe otherwise, please forgive me.

after all this,,,i still hold my orig. premise that catholics do indeed pray to and worship the people they have deemed as "saints" and jesus's mother, mary. i have yet to see one thing to convince me otherwise.

by the way,,,some backround on me...i did 4 years of catholic grade school, went to a catholic university (duquesne, run by the holy ghost fathers of which i was "recruited" personally ). i missed my confirmation in the 8th grade and decided to become confirmed when i was 28 years old before my wedding, giving the church a 3rd chance. both of my sons were baptized in the church and my son did 2 years of catholic grade school before i pulled him out since they didn't know what to do with a kid like him that is so gifted and working on a 4th grade level in 1st grade. he is currently doing 1st reconciliation classes. so for those who think i am unfamiliar with the church are just plain wrong. i've known it and studied for most of my life. and the more i look, the worse they look.

i allow my wife to continue with doing the sacraments with my son because despite my own objections to the church's practices, i am still trying to believe that the childhood religious education was an overall good thing for me back in the day.

I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything Sean. I'm simply trying to explain both how I personally as a Roman Catholic deal with the Saints, and how I was taught to deal with the Saints by the church.

Perhaps you were taught different, or simply do not accept the Saints as the CC does. In any event, I don't see this really having much to do with our salvation as Christians. Oh, I know you feel the membership of the CC is breaking commandments, and to that I'm simply happy that your not in the seat of Divine judgment.

To each their own my friend. As it stands today, there is only one being destined to spiritual death and it's not you nor I, no matter how either of us feel about the Saints.

Peace!

Lou

simply do not accept the Saints as the CC does

no, i don't accept them as anything other than people who lived on earth, just like you and me. if the church merely wanted to use them as examples and role models, i would have no problem with it. but they don't. they build statues (idols) and have prayers that at least to me, sound like direct worship. having "feast days" to the saints also come off to me as a form of reverence and worship. according to what i understand, NO MAN should be put above another in this context. i still wear my st anthony charm around my neck but not because of any reverence to tony. i wear it as a reminder of the friendship i have with the person who gave it to me who happens to be the person who sponsored me as well.

there is only one being destined to spiritual death and it's not you nor I, no matter how either of us feel about the Saints.

i'm not sure i understand...who?

btw xythe,,,i miss your "who is clever enough" posts.

So you noticed SAN CHONINO that I cited Scripture from the pejoratively referred “apocryphal” books to make the point to KFC that the Bible does indeed support the practice of offering prayers for the dead in Purgatory.

And thank you CHAKGOGKA for rightly bringing up the points that you did...including that they are called Deuterocanonical .. followed by the pronouncement that this discussion would come up again. ...........alas! It has!

In a previous post on one of KFC’s essays, I wrote at length concerning where the Bible came from and the fact that it is an eminently Catholic book (which SAN CHONINO kind of referred to). It was as natural, as natural can be, for me to cite those books....for with the Catholic Bible, in my case, the Douay Rheims, I’m playing with a full deck....all 73 Books. I’m not missing out on a portion of God’s written Word, no siree, not me....not taking any chances here!

If I may, a bit of historical background ------followed by some thoughtful conclusions.

Writers of numerous ancient books claimed to be divinely inspired, but only 73 were chosen for inclusion in the Scriptural Canon. The first Church Father to list the currently accepted 27 NT books was St. Athanasius in 367. The issue of which books would make the final cut was ultimately settled by the Magisterium of the Church (authoritative teaching office) acting in light of Apostolic Tradition. In the early Church, authoritiative decisions were made to include the 7 Deuterocanonical books with the other 66 as Sacred Scripture by the Synod of Rome in 382, at several Church Councils in 387, 392 including Hippo in 393 and Carthage 397 and 419. Pope Innocent I in 405 listed the books in an epistle written to Bishop Exuperious of Toulouse. The 7th Ecumenical Council convened in Nicea II in 787 A.D. officially listed the 73 books of Sacred Scripture as we now know it.

Their pronouncements were universally accepted for eleven centuries until the Protestant Revolution and an early Protestant reformer, Ulrich Zwingli, deleted the Deuterocanonical books from his edition of the Bible. Martin Luther also removed them from his edition because they included certain teachings that support the practice of offering prayers for the dead, as well as the doctrine of souls of Purgatory as found in 2Maccabees 12: 39-46. These all clashed with his new theological system which insists that Scripture must be the sole authority for the Christian faith.

In response, on April 8, 1546, in its 4th session, The Council of Trent, confirmed the canon of the Old and New Testaments, giving the complete list....of 73 Books. The 7 Books that Protestants pejoratively call “Aprocryphal” and Catholics call Deuterocanonical are Baruch, Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom or (Wisdom of Solomon), and Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus). These Books were included in the Septuagint, a 3rd century B.C. Greek translation of the OT which served as the Scriptures that Our Lord often referred to and of the Apostles and the generations that followed them. The earliest Greek manuscripts of the OT (Codex Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus) in the 4th century include the deuterocanonical books.

The NT closely reflects the thought of the deuterocanonical books in many passages. The Apoc. 1:4 and 8:3-4 appear to make reference to Tobit 12:15 (which is somewhat in the same literary category as the Book of Job). St. Paul, in 1Cor. 15:29 seems to have 2Maccabees 12:44 in mind and Hebrews 11:35 mirrors the thought of 2Maccabees 7:29 (1 and 2 Maccabees are historical narratives like the books of Kings and Chronicles).

..........and as a complete aside I read somewhere that Mel Gibson is considering producing a movie on the 2 Books of Maccabees. Think Hollywood will help him out this time?

Clearly, the historical reality shows the Church and Apostolic Tradition (in this case Church Councils) are equally necessary for Christian faith and life....for without them we would not even know which books belong to the Bible.

There are 2 sources from which Catholics learn the spoken Word of God. The first is divine-Apostolic Tradition, which is the revealed word of God transmitted orally from Christ to the Apostles or received to the Apostles through the inspiraton of the Holy Ghost, according to the promise of Christ, “The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit...will teach you all things and brings all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.” St. John 14:26.
That infants are validly baptized, for instance, is Tradition because it is not contained explicitly in Sacred Scripture, although it is recorded in nearly all the works of the ancient ecclesiastical writers, Church Doctors and Fathers.

Active Tradition is the Magisterium (The teaching office in matters of faith and morals) of the Church transmitting Apostolic doctrine and interpreting Scripture from age to age. Hillare Belloc wrote, “Nothing like the Magisterium exists in the world, or has existed. No religion other than Catholic comes forward and says, I am a society of divine foundation, possessed of the power to reply to question after question upon only things that really matter to which questions to which man has never yet of himself attained an answer...I alone am the voice of God perpetually speaking, settling controversies, defining and redefining in ever-expanding areas of thought whatever truths may be challenged.” Catholic Church and History

Sacred Tradition came before Scripture. The Church instructed and guided by the word of the Apostles and later by the bishops who are their successors. Thousands upon thousands of people became Christians through their work teaching the Apostle’s Creed, baptizing into the faith, celebrating the Eucharistic Mass (liturgies of worship and prayers). Christianity became a world religion before the NT was even written.
Catholics view Sacred Tradition, the Church and the Bible as harmonious parts of a whole. All 3 are necessary for the fullness or completeness of the Christian faith. In fact, the Bible points to Tradition and the Church as authoritative. It is Tradition that wrote, preserved and determined the books of Sacred Scripture and it is Tradition of the Church that has transmitted certain truths that are mentioned only cursorily in Scripture. The very last verse of the 4th Gospel according to St. John reads: “But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

Catholics freely acknowledge that the Bible plays a central and primary role in the Christian faith, however, it is not sufficient as the sole source of belief. I propose to you that if it were we would not see 30, 000 Bible-based denominations with fundamental disagreements over doctrine and of what Biblical text really means.

Scripture is not self interpreting and using the Bible alone is not a guarantee of arriving at doctrinal truth. If you examine the history of the early Church you will see that she continually struggled against heresies and those who promoted them. The Church responded to those threats by convening councils and turning to Rome to settle disputes in matters of doctrine and discipline. Pope Clement intervened in a controversy in the Church at Corinth at the end of the 1st century and put an end to a schism there. Pope Victor in the 2nd C. threatened excommunication of the Church in the East over a dispute concerning Easter. Pope Callistus in the 3rd C. pronounced condemnation of the Sabellian heresy.
In the case of heresies and or conflicts of discipline, the people involved would defend their erroneous beliefs by their interpretation of Scripture apart from Tradition or the Magisterium of the Church. Arius was a 4th C. priest who declared the Son of God was merely a creature and not co-equal with the Father. Arius and his followers quoted verses from the Bible to prove their claims. The Arian heresy became quite controversial and finally the First Ecumenical Council convened in Nicea in 325 and definitively settled the matter by making decisive declarations about the person of Christ and did so based on what Sacred Tradition had to say regarding the Scripture verses in question.

Clearly, we need an authority outside Scripture itself to tell us what it means. From the beginning of the early Church, this authority has been the Magisterium of the CC who has exercised its God-given authority to discern which books belong in the Bible and how they are correctly interpreted in the light of Sacred Tradition.

I wanted to read your posts a second time, lulabelle, and I'm glad I did. It's clearer to me, honestly, what you believe and why you believe it. Honestly, and a bit humbly, it hadn't really sunk into me before now that how God related to the ancient Hebrews through Moses required the same kind of faith from them that many people have in the mortal church now.

I guess that's where we part company. I have the same problem falling in line with your ideas as I do with KFCs. Though very different, both at some point rely upon fallible, mortal man for functions imperative to the whole. KFC relies upon the paper and ink, as do you. You're description of how the religion has been passed to us a little at a time relies upon the authority of those it was passed THROUGH to get it right and not to alter it for their own ends.

I can't have that kind of faith in people. Period. My personal belief is that God would never risk anything pertaining to our immortal souls by placing it in the hands of fallible third parties. I believe in personal revelation through our relationship with God, and I think that we can share that relationship with others for their betterment, but I don't think we can ever do it in an inerrant way.

KFC WRITES:
You cannot find anywhere in scripture where we are taught to pray for the dead. Or where the dead pray for us. Nowhere.
------------------------------

The duty to pray for the souls of the dead is inculcated in the OT and it is again taught in the NT. Christ Himself tells us that there are sins which secure their full remission only after death; that men, far from being able to sin with impunity, will expiate their sins and will not be liberated from their expiation until they have paid the last farthing. St. James tells us that we must pray for one another that we may be saved, advice certainly not limited to this life only and that the continual prayer of a just man avails much.

One of the most important activities for Catholics is prayer. Thru personal prayer, and especially prayer at Holy Mass, where we worship and praise God, we express sorrow for our sins and we intercede on behalf of others. 1Tim.2:1-4. Thru prayer we grow in our relationship with CHrist and with members of God's family. As the Mystical Body of Christ, this family includes all members of the Church, whether on earth, in Heaven, or souls in Purgatory. Since Jesus has only one Body, and since death has no power to separate us from Christ, ROm. 8:38, Christians who are in Heaven, or who, before entering Heaven are being purified in Purgatory by God's love 1Cor. 3:12-15, are still part of the Body of Christ.

Jesus said love your neighbor as yourself and those Saints in Heaven love us more intensely than they ever could have on earth. They pray for us constantly, The Apoc. 5:8, and their prayers are powerful. Jas. 5:16, Our prayers to the Saints in Heaven asking for their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ's role as sole Mediator 1Tim. 2:5. In asking Saints to pray for us, as Judas Maccabees did to Onais and Jeremiah, we follow St. Paul's instruction, "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, for this is good and pleasing to God our Savior." 1Tim.2:1-4.
This is what we pray in the Apostle's Creed, ....I believe in the "Communion of Saints". All members of the Body of Christ are the Communion of Saints. They are either on earth, in Heaven and those departed souls in Purgatory. In Charity, Jesus second greatest commandment, we are called to help one another through prayer.

The early Christians believed and practiced what they were taught from Apostolic Tradition---they believed in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, fellowship in the communion of saints, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Catholics recognize these as articles of faith from the Apostle's Creed and from which we take, in part, our Baptismal promise.

If we can pray for those undergoing trials in this life, we can pray for those of the souls of the faithful departed in Purgatory. At funerals or a buriel service, isn't that what is done all the time? Living friends pray for the dead....implore God's mercy...Lord, Jesus, remember our daughter, our mother, our father, our friend, etc....

St.Paul writing to Timothy,....offering a prayer for the repose of the soul of his dead friend, Onesiphorus. "The Lord will give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus" and "the Lord grant unto HIM to find mercy of the Lord in that day." he prayed. 2Tim.1:16;18. Onesiphorus was dead, 4:19 and we have no reason to believe that the moment a soul dies it is perfected. Like St.Paul, we pray for the dead because they need our prayers.
St.Paul teaches that Christians are members of CHrist and members, therefore, of one another, so that if one member suffer anything, all the members suffer with him.

In the OT, we read, "it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins." 2Macc.12:46.

Why did the ancient Jews pray for the dead? For the same reason they prayed for the living----it was an act of fraternal charity. Charity for our fellow member of CHrist's Body demands that we pray for them whether they be on earth, in Heaven or in purification in Purgatory. The very first Christians who were Jews maintained this excellent and noble practice. Most people who eventually go to Heaven still require purification after they die. They can't be glorified in the presence of the Vision of God until they are holy as He is holy...and perfect as He is perfect.