"True. But I still think they're better than the evangelists. At least you know the Catholic Church will be there at birth, death, and everywhere in between. They're not just in it for the cash windfall."

I can't really see how you can say that. They'll be there like Microsoft will be there when you need an OS or Wal Mart when you need socks, and those corporations do altruistic things, too. Is that charity, or just perpetuating their position?

At the very least the evangelicals don't claim you have to have them or your soul is damned, right? This goes back to what changed with Jesus' crucifixion. Did we remove the 'veil' between God and man as it is said, or did we just replace the Hebrew priesthood with the Catholic priesthood?

Whether evangelicals molest kids more than Catholics or whether the local preacher will show up when you are sick isn't the point here. The point is whether religion, i.e. the trappings, the ritual, the political mechinizations, etc., are necessary and 'of God', or are they man made and superfluous.

If they say you burn in hell without them, one would imagine they aren't superfluous, and that these material and mortal things have divine power. To me, that's idolatry.

At the very least the evangelicals don't claim you have to have them or your soul is damned, right?

Really? I don't know of a single Christian group that says non-Christians aren't damned...except the Catholic Church.

The point is whether religion, i.e. the trappings, the ritual, the political mechinizations, etc., are necessary and 'of God', or are they man made and superfluous.

They can't be both? I honestly don't understand why trappings can't be at one and the same time superfluous for some and necessary for others.

Then why bother? Someone took the time to write out a thought out article, albeit one I don't agree with. Others took the time to comment and all you have to offer is sarcasm. Why bother?

Well, it's backed up sarcasm/humor. I mean, like what's being said. You've got prayers that raise saints and such to "god like" status. You glorify them, like another idol, and ask them to intercede. Why not go to God?

Why not go to God?

Humility is the response to that, I think. As sinners who feel inadequate and unworthy of dealing directly with God you might feel it necessary to ask an intermediary to speak on your behalf.

It's the basis of any priest's rationale for existence. People don't feel they can reach God on their own so they raise one amongst them to quasi-godhood as an intermediary and spiritual leader.

"Really? I don't know of a single Christian group that says non-Christians aren't damned...except the Catholic Church."

Wait, catholics don't believe that non-Christians aren't going to hell? They don't believe most protestants are going to hell? That's odd. Could you back that up with doctrine?

Please, make me understand how Protestants believe that they require church sacraments are necessary for salvation more than Catholics. You will find some that believe that baptism is, but a lot don't even believe that. I know many Christians that believe you don't ever need to set foot in a church to go straight to heaven when you die.

You're saying that's not accurate?

"They can't be both? I honestly don't understand why trappings can't be at one and the same time superfluous for some and necessary for others."

In a religion you'd invent they could be. Could you point out the Catholic doctrine that makes it so in reality? Or are you just making this stuff up off the top of your head?

I understand that you're talking about the reality of what you believe and it could well be true, but Catholicism rejects reality on a daily basis in favor of 2000 years of bureaucracy. You can make up anything you want for your beliefs, but you have to admit there's been a machine actively defining Catholic beliefs for, oh, quite some time...

Could you point out the Catholic doctrine that makes it so in reality?

Well there's the religious orders. They have vastly more requirements on them than the laity but don't have any greater guarantee of heaven. As far as I know they are called to the priesthood/monastery/nunnery, so it's God's desire that some do more for the same reward.

That's just logic though. Catholic doctrine is far too impenetrable and boring for me.

Wait, catholics don't believe that non-Christians aren't going to hell?

Yeah Pope John Paul announced years ago that good people go to heaven (missing the centuries-old qualifier of good Catholic people). I'm surprised you didn't hear about it. Apparently you only go to hell if you reject the word of God.

Anyway Catholic scholars don't even seem too convinced that hell exists in the first place, or at least that seems to be the case in Australia. The archbishops preach a very different doctrine to the Cardinal, and the priests something different again.

I honestly think the idea of Catholic unity is a total sham. Only non-Catholics could think the Church is monolithic. I can't see how anyone could compare a Roman Catholic with an Irish Catholic with an African Catholic with an East Timorese Catholic with a Latin Catholic and say there's no room for diversity or totally different opinions in the Church. African priests can marry, ET priests have basically taken on much of the island's animist background and the Irish are, well, the Irish.

Maybe you're right though, Bakerstreet. Maybe Catholicism is a massive monolithic faith where you must complete all the rites on schedule or face eternal damnation, a faith where the merest deviation is punished with hellfire. I'm not nearly as interested in religion as others. But I don't feel that that church is the church that I was raised in, nor do I see such a monolith guiding the paths of the many Catholics I know. We can't all be heretics.

SConn1 -----You certainly have some erroneous ideas about Catholicism.

Catholics do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary or any of the saints in heaven. Yes, We do venerate and honor them ....always by invoking their intercession usually through prayer. All through the Bible you will find God conferring favors through the prayers of others. St. James told us the prayer of a just man availeth much.....how much more the prayer of Blessed Mary? St. James also tells us to pray for one another. Why did St. Paul write to the Thessalonians "For the rest Brethren, Pray for us that the word of God may run and may be glorified, even as among you. and that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men...". Why did he not that ask that directly of God instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians?

The earliest extant prayer to Our Blessed Mother Mary dates back to the early 200's..."Beneath your protection we fly o Holy Mother of God. In our necessities, despise not our petitions, but always deliver us from all dangers, oh glorious Blessed VIrgin."
This and many other Christian invocations of the Blessed Mary and the saints were not a prayer of worship. It's a prayer asking for intercession and it's rooted in the Biblical principle expressed by St.Paul. "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God, our Savior." 1Tim.2:1-4.

Catholics believe that the Blessed MOther and all the saints are in heaven expriencing everlasting LIFE. They who are in heaven are alive to God. Just as St. Paul asked the other disciples to pray for him, now, we can ask him and the other saints to intercede for us with God in heaven....this is what we call the communion of saints....and goes with the Mystical Body of CHrist. This goes to the image of the vine and its branches. This is a metaphor of our relationship with Christ. He being the vine, we being the branches that live through Him. If we are connected to Christ, then we are also connected to one another. Those who die and go to Heaven are not cut off from the vine. The saints remain as branches and they remain related to us on earth. Rom. 15:30; Eph. 6:18.

The Bible offers scriptural warrant to the veneration and invocation of the saints, of which the BLessed Mother is the greatest of saints.
1st--the veneration offered angels---Jos. 15:14; Dan. 8:17; Tob. 12:16. St. Matt. 18:10; 1 cor. 13:12; 1St.John 3:2.
The ancient Jews believed in the intercession of saints. 2Deceased men, Onias and the prophet Jeremiah, interceded with fGod for the Jews, 2Macc 15:11-16 Jeremiah himself wrote that Moses and Samuel made intercession for the Jews apparently meaning after their deaths, Jer. 15:1.

ANother one from St. Mark 12:26-27 shows those in heaven are quite awake, and aware---"And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how god said to him, "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living, you are quite wrong."

Catholics pray to the Blessed Mother becasue God wills that we should do so and bexasue such prayers to her are of the utmost value. God often wills to give certain favors only on condition that we go through some secondary agent. Sodom was to be spared through the intercession of Abraham, Naaman the leper, was to be cured only through the waters of the Jordan. The Blessed Virgin is the mother of Christ. If I desire to pray, I can certainly pray to God directly. Would you blame me if I would ask my own earthly mother to pray for me also. Such a request is really a prayer from her that she might intercede for me to God. Certainly, if I met the mother of Christ on earth, I would ask her to pray for me and she would do so. And in her more perfect state in Heaven, she is not less able to help me???? Doesn't the Bible say that if we want to ask God for a favor or blessing, someone else praying to God, 2 people praying for the same favor are better than one? When the other one praying is Christ's own mother, and she is pleasing to God, He will be ready to grant her requests.

""For the rest Brethren, Pray for us that the word of God may run and may be glorified, even as among you. and that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men...". Why did he not that ask that directly of God instead of asking the prayers of the Thessalonians?"

Asking living people to pray for you is the same as asking dead people? What's the difference between a saint and an average dead person, out of curiosity? If they aren't more than the regular person, why not just ask anyone? You have a reason to designate them as particularly important, right?

If they ARE more, then you have to admit they have more clout with God than the average, and that makes them more than just people, right? Or does God listen to them more than he listens to us? Some would call that a demi-god, you use the word saint. What's the difference?

Jesus taught us how to pray. It's in Matt Chap 6.

Our Father which art in heaven.......


never are we to pray to another......

it's very clear....there is only one mediator between God and man and that mediator is Jesus Christ.

SConn1 writes: They defy the Lord when they openly worhip and pray to Jesus's mother, Mary and the folks whom the corrupt college of cardinals deem to be a "saint." They try to justify it thru dogmatic decrees and writings to their naive and manipulated flock. It is truly a shame that the western world's largest representation of it's faith has failed the Lord and it's membership by advocating Idol worship.

AGAIN, YOUR understanding of Catholicism is incorrect.
(It seems to me that the western world is mired in paganism, both old and neo, it's members advocate idol worship in money, self, power, fame, pleasure, the profane, etc, etc.).

The Church celebrates the feast of All Saints on Nov. 1st. Saints are people who lived heroic lives of virtue. They are, in most cases, ordinary people from every walk and condition of life. When people like St. Thomas More, St. Thomas aquinas, St. Stephen, deacon and 1st martyr, stoned to death in 36 A.D., St. Francis of Assisi, St. Bernadette, St. Maria Goretti, and St. Therese of Lisieux, whom St. Pius X called the greatest saint of modern times. People like these live such holy lives that we are compelled to admire them and acknowledge that the world owes them much.
Once the Church is asked to say whether such a person is worthy to be honored as a Saint, she then goes about carefully collecting all possible information, and after due consideration, declares yes or no. The Church has never proclaiimed anyone a saint who has not been 100% worthy of that honor. The CC canonizes only those whose heroic virtues have been proved.

The CC critically examines the life of the candidate for sainthood. Before the Pope defines that a given soul is indeed a Saint, the advocates of the cause must prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the person in question exercised all Christian virtues in a heroic degree--supreme faith, hope and charity, perfect prudence, justice fortitude and temperance. God's own testimony is given, His guarantee, by a miracle(s) wrought through the person's intercession is required. Proof that miracles have been obtained through the intercession of a candidate for Sainthood is a necessary condition of canonization.

God's First Commandment is that He alone shall receive divine honor and worship and adoration. Every Catholic accepts this as one of the basic truths of Catholicism. The Church forbids giving divine honor or worship to the Blessed Mother, to Angels and Saints for this belongs to God alone.
Nowhere does God state that those of His creatures who are nearest and dearest to Him shall not be proportionately honored for His sake. Devotion to Our Blessed Lady Mary is and always has been an integral part of Catholicism. By practicing it, the Church simply follows the example of God Himself -- who chose her from among all the women of all time to be His Mother, and of Christ who from the Cross commended all men into her keeping. The King of Heaven and earth will certainly not close His ears to the requests of His mother and the mother of all men will certainly not fail to harken to the prayers of her children and bring them to her Son.

It is clear from Scripture that the angels intercede and pray for men and so do their companions the Saints in heaven. The Saints are filled with intense love of their fellow men for Christ's sake. They also have great power with God because they have passed through their time of trial and are wholly pleasing to Him. It is not unreasonable therefore, that the Church Militant, from the beginning have begged the intercession of the Saints. Devotion to them in the bond of communion life of the Mystical Body has been fostered and strengthened. The history of the CHurch is full of instances in which Our Lady and the Saints have responded to prayers offered through their intercession.

Here is our prayer of spiritual pilgrimage with His Holiness Pope Benedict on his pastoral visit to Turkey Nov. 28-Dec. 1, 2006
Heavenly Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth takes its name, we humbly ask that you sustain, inspire, and protect your servant, Pope Benedict XVI, as he goes on pilgrimage to Turkey---a land to which St. Paul brought the Gospel of your Son; a land where once the Mother of your Son; the seat of Wisdom dwelt; a long where faith in your Son's true divinity was definitively professed. Bless our Holy Father, who comes as a messenger of truth and love to all people of faith and good will dwelling in this land so rich in history. In the power of the Holy Spirit, may this visit of the Holy Father bring about deeper ties of understanding, cooperation, and peace among Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, and those who profess Islam. May the prayers and events of these historic days greatly contribute both to greater accord among those who worship you, the living and true God, and also to peace in our world so often torn apart by war and sectarian violence.
We also ask,O Heavenly Father, that you watch over and protect Pope Benedict and entrust him to the loving care of Mary, under the title of Our Lady of Fatima, a title cherished both by Catholics and Muslims. Through her prayers and maternal love, may Pope Benedict be kept safe from all harm as he prays, bears witness to the Gospel, and invites all peoples to a dialogue of faith, reason and love. We make our prayer through Christ, our Lord. Amen.

Reply By: KFC (Kickin For Christ) Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2006
Jesus taught us how to pray. It's in Matt Chap 6.

Our Father which art in heaven.......

Yes, of course. "The Lord's Prayer" is the most perfect prayer. However, prayer and supplication can be in many other forms and still be most pleasing to God. He hears the prayers we address to Saints and their prayers also on our behalf. And those prayers added to our own are heard by God in a favorable way.


KFC WRITES: never are we to pray to another......

The key word here is "TO". I agree that we are not to pray "TO" other living humans on earth. We can and should pray 'WITH" and "FOR" others though. Rather, we pray directly to God or to Mary and to the Saints asking for their intercession. In doing so, Catholics do not elevate them as even remotely divine or even quasi-divine. In Catholic theology Mary falls infinitely short of divinity. All it says is that Catholics believe that the Blessed Mother's prayers and intercession has a special efficacy in winning for us the protection of the Omnipotent power of God and His infinite mercy.

Concerning Christ being the One Mediator, consider what we do for one another now. We pray for others and we ask others to pray for us. By doing so, we act as mediators since we pray to God on behalf of others and our friends are mediatiors for us. In your congregation, doesn't Sister this or Brother ask the congregation to "pray over them"? This prayer for one another does not violate Christ's role as the One Mediator because ours is a secondary mediatorship that is entirely dependent on His. St. Paul asked his friends to pray for him as he prayed for them, and today Christians do the same, and none of this violates the truth that without Christ our prayers to the Father would be ineffectual.

Catholics believe Mary is our Spiritual mother and she has not lost her interest in those whom her Son died merely because she is in Heaven. It is the Christian law according to St. James that we should pray FOR one another. The Saints in heaven (The Church Triumphant) pray for us who are on earth and still endeavoring to work out our salvation. Our belief in the Communion of Saints is a doctrine we profess every time we say the Apostle's Creed. Prayers to the Blessed Mother and to the Saints are prayers to God through their intercession. There is no denying that at times it is better to have Our Lady praying with us rather than to pray alone to God. 2 prayers are better than one, above all, when the other to whom I have asked to join my petition is the very Mother of Christ, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity.

Prayers to the Saints is good and useful and the doctrine is clearly enough indicated in Scripture. I have mentioned Abraham's prayer for Sodom. The Jews asked Moses to go to speak to God on their behalf. God Himself said to Eliphaz, the Themanite, "...My wrath is kindled against thee...and my servant Job will pray for you. His face I will accept that folly be not imputed to you...." Job 42:7-8. Earlier, in that same book, "Call now if there will be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the Saints. His enemies meant that Job was too wicked to be heard, but they knew that it was lawful to invoke the Saints.

Long after the death of Jeremiah, Onias said, "This is a lover of his brethren and of the people of Israel. This is he that prayeth much for the people and for all the holy city, Jeremiah the prophet of God. 2Mach 15:14.

St. James says that "the prayer of a just man availeth much." If his prayer is valuable, it is worth while to ask his prayers. If you say, Yes, that is all right while a man is still in this life and on earth, I ask whether you think he has less power when in heaven with God?

In The Apoc. 8:4, St. John says that he saw "...the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel."

Asking living people to pray for you is the same as asking dead people? What's the difference between a saint and an average dead person, out of curiosity? If they aren't more than the regular person, why not just ask anyone? You have a reason to designate them as particularly important, right?

Well praying is a spiritual thing. I'm not certain what difference it makes who you ask, as long as that being belongs to the body of Christ. Anyhow, I believe in Rev 5:8 you can see in fact that the saints do intercede on our behalves.

BAKERSTREET WRITES: In a doctrinal sense, this sets up a problem. The whole New Testament vibe was one of populism. No longer do we have the holy of holies and the levites who can touch the arc and we can't, yadda yadda. It's just us and God.

Then... comes the Catholic Church. To many it looks like in order to validate its power and create a position for itself, it has begun to have its own demi-gods of sorts. Now you just don't talk to God, you get father so-and-so who died 200 years ago to put a good word in for you.

QUITE AN INTERESTING TAKE, BAKERSTREET. AFTER SEEING THE PHOTO NEXT TO YOUR NAME I must admit I think of you now as BASIL OF BAKERSTREET!

God gave the true religion to mankind gradually so that men could be prepared by more simple doctrines for still more noble truths.

A good place to start to understand the religion taught by God is from the beginning------

Man has always had a religion taught by God. It falls into 4 divisions.
1---The religion of Adam who was instructed directly by God. This was the 1st stage and is known as the religion of innocent man.
2---After Adam's Fall, he handed on the truth about God and the duty of man to worship Him to his children. The traditions were offered by Adam's posterity,but memories faded. Thus Abel offered sacrifice. Still, conscience always dictated what is naturally right, and this period is called the period of natural law. God gave occasional revelations to various Patriarchs over and above the natural law and this stage is called the period of Patriarchial religion or pre-Mosaic unwritten law. Noah belonged to this stage.
3---This stage came with Moses. After the re-muiltiplication of the human race from Noah, man again began to forget God and God gave to Moses a clearer exposition of religious duties to be put in writing. This is known as the stage of the written Law or that of the Mosaic Religion.
4---Finally, God sent His own SOn to give the more perfect law-the Christian law--which the CC teaches today in its fullness and will teach until the end of time.

God is patient and all things are according to His pleasure and purpose. The taking of so much time in sending His Only Begotten Son with the perfection of the law was to adapt mankind's natural method of progress from the less perfect to the more perfect.

He sent Moses the lawgiver and after him a series of prophets to explain the Old Law and to predict the First Coming of the Messiah. Christ fulfilled these predictions and taught the perfect law of God. The religion known by the Jews before Christ was therefore imperfect and preparatory. The religion or New Covenant of Christ was its perfect fulfillment and the Jews should have recognized it and accepted it. They did not. The Jews were God's chosen people until the coming of CHrist and they could have been among His chosen people now, had they remained true to God. God did not change His attitude toward them, rather they changed their attitude toware Him. They had been taught to look forward to the Redeemer, but when He came, they rejected Him becasue they wished Him to bring them temporal, not spiritual gifts.

At first, Christ sent His Apostles to teach only the Jews, and then to preach it to the Gentiles. At Pentecost, Christianity was born as the perfect development of the Jewish religion. Christ retained all the basic laws of religion and morality contained in the progressively revealed Jewish preparation, abolishing only the particular rites and ceremonies which were purely figurative and also the imprefections of the initial religion, namely the bloody sacrifice at the temple or synagague. Scripture shows that Christ intended this perfect development of the Mosaic religion to be distinct from the religion of the Synagogue. Referring to the future, Christ said, I will build my Church." The synagogue was already established. Christ prescribed new doctrines, new modes of worship, and a new form of authority. He even predicted His apostles,"In the Synagaogue you shall be beaten." St. Mark 13:9.

Scripture tells us that many of the individual Jews accepted the earlty Church and Christianity. As a race, the Jews did not. This is bexause the leaders of religious thought had lost the true religious spirit, had given selfishly transferred their affections to al love of high places, and had substituted the idea of a temperal ruler over the idea of a spritual one. Christ didn't fit in with their earthly notions and ambitions and they rejected him. The majority of the people depended on Scribes and Pharisees for religious direction obeyed these leaders and their own national pride.

The first members of the Early Church were individual Jews chosen by Christ to spread His doctrines among the Gentiles; and this in accordance with His own prediction in the parable of the great supper, where the first invited would not come. An earlier warning had been given to Jews that their birthright would pass to the Gentiles in the incident of Esau's selling of his birthright to Jacob.

From this I can only conclude as valid reason for my faith as a Catholic....

Historically, it is certain that Christ really lived, really claimed to be God, proved His claim by His supreme command over the laws of nature established by God, taught the Christian religion, and obliged man to accept that religion.
Philosophically, Christianity alone, gives an adequate solution and explanation of the origin, condition and purpose of man.
Religiously, it infinitely surpasses all other forms of religion and alone completely responds to the innate religious tendencies of man.
Theologically, I am a Christian becasue God has given me the grace to perceive the truth of CHristianity and to embrace it.
Morally, I am obliged in strict justice to accept a religion specified and imposed by Almighty God.

To those people who lived before Christ, the merits and grace of Christ were applied by God to men of goodwill in anticipation of His death on the Cross. God, in His eternity, is not conditioned by time. I believe that those who through no fault of their own did not know of a Redeemer to come, were saved if they obeyed the natural law and natural dictates of their conscience and repented of their failings. Every human being has the moral standard that what is morally good must be done, while moral evil must be avoided.

The early Jews and Romans hated Christianity, for both peoples feared that it would interfere with their conduct and their comfort. Today, the Catholic Church enjoys this inheritance of antagonism as does no other religion. The reason for this is because the CC differs in no way from the religion Christ preached.

YES, BAKERSTREET, NOW COMES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: In fact, it is the exact religion of Christ that has come down to us in virtue of Christ's promise to be with His Church until the end of the world.

Humility is the response to that, I think. As sinners who feel inadequate and unworthy of dealing directly with God you might feel it necessary to ask an intermediary to speak on your behalf.

That makes some sense.

It's the basis of any priest's rationale for existence. People don't feel they can reach God on their own so they raise one amongst them to quasi-godhood as an intermediary and spiritual leader.

And that is where I split from many i know. I don't believe that a priest is necessary in faith, i believe that a person can find, maintain, and continue their faith on their own.

BAKERSTREET WRITES:
I don't want to offend or be disrespectful, but it seems so transparent to me where the Catholic Church has created a necessary place for itself between man and God to perpetuate its power. You can't be born long without needing them, you can't die without needing them, and in between you'd better be using their services.

Your observations are quite astute except you have come to the wrong conclusion in that the CC is not about perpetuating "power". The CC is necessary for, without it, the world would have disintegrated into chaos long ago.
The Church exists to sanctify men. Her infallibility in matters of faith and morals, her heirarchial set-up, and incomparable teaching authority converge in on this one end. The Church is the union of man with Christ. He gave Himself to her so that she enjoys His own infallibility(again only in matters of faith and morals) and dispenses certain visible means (His grace through the Sacraments) where His enexhaustible sanctity and grace flows to us.

St. Thomas Aquinas calls the 7 Sacraments (which produce a grace merited by Christ) Christ's Passion applied to man. All good stuff upon which Christendom thrives.