BAKERSTREET WRITES:
What if they were a business? How would it be received if a pharmaceutical company situated itself so that people were reliant on them for their very lives, based upon studies and literature that they, THEMSELVES, authored? Wouldn't people stop and think maybe, just maybe, they'd set themselves up a pretty good position?

Although I'm queasy about it, some writers do use the analogy of a business corporation to describe the nature of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ. It goes something like this.----Mr. Jones owns a great manufacturing plant and floats a company to take over the ownership and control of the enterprise. Jones is still head of the firm, but now the firm is completed by the addtion of a body of shareholders. A new entity has come into existence, a new moral person, consisting of the head, Mr. Jones, and those incorporated with him making one body. Many people will still refer to the products of the firm as being the work of Mr. Jones, but he now has a new significance. not only does it mean the physical person, Mr. Jones, but also the moral or social person, Jones Manufacturing Company.

There is a danger to this illustration of the comtemplation of the union between Christ and His members. We must be careful to reject every kind of mystic union by which the faithful (including the pope and bishops in declaring ex cathedra statements ) would in any way ever pass beyond the shphere of human and enter the divine, even to the extent of one single attribute of the eternal Godhead being predicated of them as their own." It would be a great error to unite Christ and the CHurch in physical personality.

Yet, the Church is more than a moral body, it is referred to as the Mystical BOdy of Christ.... and it is here that many false ideas crop up. The term mystical distinguishes the CHurch from a moral body such as the business corporation analagy. It is true that the head and its members form a moral unity, but in the Church there is a unity of higher order, it is to Christ, the unity between the vine and its branches... this is what is traditionally termed "mystical".

St.Paul's teachings explain this well. He speaks of the Head of a concern founded to save and sanctify souls, the physical Person, Jesus Christ. But He also speaks of the other personality, the moral one which consists of Christ as Head, and all those incorporated with Him, making one body, the CC. It is the physical Christ who died for us and redeemed us, but it is the moral or Mystical Christ--Head plus members--who actually puts us in possession of the graces won by the Redemption.

To regard the Church as merely an orgainization is to miss the point of her significance in the world. She is the continuance of the work of a Divine Person, and she will never fail simply becasue Christ can never fail. The Church has traversed all ages teaching and comforting mankind, and giving glory to God on high. The CC has gone on throughout the centuries in spite of treachery from within and attack from without. If she would have been merely an organization, that would have been impossible. She would have shared the fate of all the other organizations.

Instead, she alone stands out as having the fullness of the mind of CHrist. In all essentials, the CC uses the very words of Christ and does only the things He started and gave her to carry on. That is why her priests (even though sinners) speak with authority. What they teach, what the CC teaches, does not differ in 'one jot or tittle" from what Christ taught in Palestine so long ago. The so-called difficult mysteries and dogmas of the Church are simply repetitions of the teachings of CHrist---the Blessed Trinity, the Holy Eucharist (The Holy Mass), the relational importance of soul and body and time and eternity, the impossiblility of winning heaven without the continual help of God, the fact of Hell, the authority of successors of St. Peter, the necessity of prayer and penance, the enduring character of marriage, the value of personal purity and poverty of spirit------these and all the other doctrines of Christ are taught today as they have been from the beginning simply becasue she still speaks to men with the infallible voice of Christ Himself.


SCONN1 writes: When will Catholics own up to following a false church? Will they ever break the spell that the Church puts on them in their youth or at moments of weakness and vulnerability? The Lord warned us of false prophets. He didn't warn us about obviously evil people and things because he trusted man's ability to reason and see the obvious. The false prophets the Lord warned us about were the ones who would come as a beacon "of light." the prophets the Lord warned us of would be the ones that would seem to be real messengers from the Lord. Messengers and prophets like the ones that make up the Catholic Church.


All I can say to you, Sean is this is a mystery of God's bounty and wisdom and omnipotence.

There are still people who complain about Christ's words, "This saying is hard, who can hear it?" St. John 6:61.

Sean advises that I should "own up" and break away from the Catholic Church's "spell" of failed and false messages ------but Sean, where do you suggest I find Truth?

You write, "he (God) trusted man's ability to reason and see the obvious." REALLY?

You say I'm all wrong here ---------------------------so, YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO REASON AND SEE THE OBVIOUS------ where do you suggest that I go?

BAKERSTREET WRITES:
I don't want to offend or be disrespectful, but it seems so transparent to me where the Catholic Church has created a necessary place for itself between man and God to perpetuate its power. You can't be born long without needing them, you can't die without needing them, and in between you'd better be using their services.

Your observations are quite astute except you have come to the wrong conclusion in that the CC is not about perpetuating "power". The CC is necessary for, without it, the world would have disintegrated into chaos long ago.
The Church exists to sanctify men. Her infallibility in matters of faith and morals, her heirarchial set-up, and incomparable teaching authority converge in on this one end. The Church is the union of man with Christ. He gave Himself to her so that she enjoys His own infallibility(again only in matters of faith and morals) and dispenses certain visible means (His grace through the Sacraments) where His enexhaustible sanctity and grace flows to us.

St. Thomas Aquinas calls the 7 Sacraments (which produce a grace merited by Christ) Christ's Passion applied to man. All good stuff upon which Christendom thrives.

not ignoring ya, lulabelle. Don't have time right this moment, but I'll look back in when I can read it all with the attention it deserves. Don't want to skim.

I believe in Rev 5:8 you can see in fact that the saints do intercede on our behalves.

In The Apoc. 8:4, St. John says that he saw "...the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel

You're both assuming that you have to be dead to be a saint. That's a CC teaching but not a biblical one. I would recommend you get a concordance and look up every "saints" in scripture. Let me give you a few examples.

Romans 1:7 Paul addressing the Christians in Rome....

"To all that be in Rome beloved of God called to be saints........"

Philippians 4:21-22
Salute every saint in Christ Jesus.....
All the saints salute you chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.

Jude 3
....you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Col 1:2
To the saints and faithful brethen in Christ which are at Colossee.....



The word "saints" means "holy ones" or "set-apart ones." The NT designates all believers as "saints" because they are by position holy and set apart to God.

The two verses you both quoted from Revelation are prayers of saints that are alive...not dead. They are those that are going thru the end times during the tribulation time and are praying for deliverance. The incense of the OT was a symbol of our prayers going up to God. That's what you see here. Never are we suppose to pray for dead and neither do the dead pray for us...not according to the scriptures.

The word "saints" means "holy ones" or "set-apart ones." The NT designates all believers as "saints" because they are by position holy and set apart to God.

Whoa. Did ya all feel that? I felt an earth-tremor. KFC and I actually agree on something . . . I swear I felt that shake.

But in this, she is right. The saints are not there, interceding for us . . . they are walking among us, and may be headed to your door soon. Let them in. You'll be glad you did.

You're both assuming that you have to be dead to be a saint.

I'm sorry KFC, you seem to be assuming that I am assuming. In fact, I never mentioned anything about saints being alive or dead. Fact be known, it's my beliefe that all the saints are with god, and thus alive. Are there any dead saints?

The saints are not there, interceding for us . .

I'm sorry San Cho, they do infact intercede on our behalf; this is biblical. I do however there may be many walking among us. I also believe that there are some not yet born into the flesh.

There are others who believe that Jesus will not come back to the earth, until all the saints have been born into the flesh, and others until God has claimed them all.

(Citizen)KFC (Kickin For Christ)

I find it really interesting that you claim the CC to be wrong. Then you site bible versus like they matter. If I asked a hundred people to read the bible I would get 100 different interpretations. The bible is flawed and to follow it blindly is foolish.

How many men have translated the bible from its original verse? The real proof is in how many different versions of the bible there are. If I asked those same 100 people to translate the bible into language they understand, again I would get 100 different texts.

How do you know the bible you read is accurate? Is it faith in man or faith in God? I trust God. I don't trust man.

wow,,,go away for a few days and come back to this...interesting comments and thank you to all for them...probably gonna take me a lil while to catch up and respond, either here or with another article to further explain my position.

How do you know the bible you read is accurate? Is it faith in man or faith in God? I trust God. I don't trust man.

of everything i've read thus far,,,this sums up a lot of what i feel. excellent point john, thanks:)

I think it is interesting that KFC says the Bible translates itself, and that we can trust the holy spirit to guide us to know what is inerrant. Yet... here we have two obviously devout people, with very different interpretations of the same book.

KFC WRITES:
You're both assuming that you have to be dead to be a saint. That's a CC teaching but not a biblical one.
The word "saints" means "holy ones" or "set-apart ones." The NT designates all believers as "saints" because they are by position holy and set apart to God.
I thought that to Bible Christians, '"church" is "all believers"....and now,

By your reading of the New Testament, all believers are "saints"? So, restated, "saints" are those of us living on earth who are professed "believers"? According to this definition, all believers are saints. When put that way, it seems to me like a huge devaluation of what I've always understood as sanctity or sainthood.

I think I understand where you are coming from on this, just disagree.

We can immediately agree that God created us to know, love and serve Him in this world to be happy with Him for eternity in the next. The whole reason for our existence Jesus sums up when He says, "I came so that [you] might have life and have it more abundantly." St. John 10:10. Our loving Heavenly Father wants to give us all good things---especially eternal life. Jesus died to save us all from eternal separation from God that sin causes. When Jesus saved us, He makes us part of His Body--which is the Church. 1Cor. 12:27-30. This way we become united with Him and with Christians everywhere on earth (Church Militant), in Heaven (Church Triumphant) and in purgatory (Church Suffering).

There may be living "saints" on earth, but those are not the ones that Catholics refer to in the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints in the ninth article of the Apostle's Creed. By communion of Saints, I mean that all the members of the Church in Heaven, on earth and in Purgatory are in communion with one another as being one Body in Jesus Christ.
On earth we are in communion with each other by association in prayer and good works.
We are in communion with the Saints in Heaven by honoring them as the glorified members of the CHurch and also by our praying to them and their prayer for us.
We are in communion with the souls in Purgatory by helping them with our prayers. "It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, and that they may be loosed from sins." 2Maccabees12:46.

Note: Purgatory comes from the constant teaching of the CC and from Holy Scripture which declares God will render to every man according to his works; that nothing defiled shall enter Heaven and that some will be saved "as one who has gone through fires." St. Matt. 16:27;The Apoc. 21:27; 1Cor. 3:15; 2St.John 20:23.

Catholics believe that the Saints are heroes of God and becasue of their heroic and virtuous lives on earth and after their death receive a share of Heaven and reflect some of the supernatural eminence of Christ. The Church, through a very strict process of cananization, acknowledges them with a special reverence and infinitely below that given to God alone. Becaseu of the love the Saints have for us and the power they enjoy with God, they are ready to obtain many benefits for us. This devotion is also justified by the veneration that was paid to the Angels and to holy men in Scripture. Job 43:8; Acts 8:60; Rom.15:30, etc....

To be a Saint, one must believe, yes, and also one must practice the social, theological and cardinal virtues. To find people who practice this heroic virtue, to put it concretely, is very uncommon.....but that is not to say that living saints are not out there, they are....

KFC WRITES:
I believe in Rev 5:8 you can see in fact that the saints do intercede on our behalves.
In The Apoc. 8:4, St. John says that he saw "...the prayers of the Saints ascending up before God from the hand of an angel
You're both assuming that you have to be dead to be a saint.
The two verses you both quoted from Revelation are prayers of saints that are alive...not dead. The incense of the OT was a symbol of our prayers going up to God. That's what you see here. Never are we suppose to pray for dead and neither do the dead pray for us...not according to the scriptures.

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Catholic interpretation of these 2 verses reference to the fact that indicate that the 'saints' in Heaven intercede with God on our behalf. Throughout the ages, it has always been believed that the Apostles and the marytrs are saints who gave the supreme witness of faith and charity (which means love--Bakerstreet {smily face here}) are closely united with us in Christ. We venerate them and ask piously for the help of their intercession to God.

The usefullness of intecessory prayer is something we first learn about in the OT. We are told how Moses, with his hands raised to heaven pleaded successfully for Israelite victory over the Amalekites Ex. 17:8 References to the altar of incence recall elements of Jewish worship which was a prefiguration of the worship of the Father "in spirit and in truth" announced by Jesus in St. John 4:23.
The incense sometimes used during the Holy Mass is for the same purpose of our prayers, praise and worship going up to Our Heavenly Father and be acceptable and pleasing to Him.

In response to the prayers of the Saints, the Lord once again manifests His presence in the way He did at Sinai. The Angel's action is reminescent of Ezekiel 10:2 where the Angel fills his hands with the burning coals and scatters them over Jerusalem.
In The Apoc. 5:8-10, St. John uses these to show the value of prayers and praise rendered by the heavenly Church (Church Triumphant) unites with the pilgrim Church on earth (Church Militant) through its own prayers (symbolized by the image of the golden bowls).

I know to pray for departed souls because God would not have inspired the Jews to pray for them if such prayers were of no avail. Christians from the earliest times have always prayed for the dead. There is art and writing that show prayers were offered to the dead on the walls of the catacombs that date back to the first 3 centuries when the early CHristians were under Roman and Jewish persecution.

If we can pray for our dear ones in this life, our prayers can certainly follow them in their next life. All prayers address the same God who is present to the souls of the departed just as He is to us.

As to dead Saints, I offer this as Catholic Biblical basis on the doctrine of prayers to the Communion of Saints.
The Saints in Heaven are not dead, but living as "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." I would submit to you that they are aware of what is going on on earth to the extent that God permits.

1. The Apoc. 6:9-11----this is where we see the souls of the marytrs beneath the altar of God cry out for judgment and revenge...
2. St. Matt. 17:2-3----Moses and Elias had long been dead when they appeared at the Transfiguration of our Lord, and as they spoke they gave the appearance of being alive to the point that the apostles wanted to pitch a tent for them to sleep.
3. 1St.Peter 4:6---Jesus preached to the dead after His Death and before His Resurrection.
4. St. Paul writes of the faith and suffering of "the ancients" Heb. 11:2-40. These dead Saints constitute "A cloud of witnesses over our head...", Heb. 12:1.
5. Although the wicked Dives had died and was in Hell, Lazurus was in Heaven and they figured in a drama related by OUr Lord. Along with Abraham, they had major parts they played after they had died and souls went to Heaven. St.Luke 16:19-31.

6. "But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them. In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die, and their departure was taken for misery; and their going away from us, for utter destruction; but they are in peace. And though in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality. Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he that received them and in time there shall be respect had to them. The just shall shine, and shall run to and fro like sparks among the reeds. They shall judge nations, and rule over people, and their Lord shall reign forever. they that trust in Him, shall understand the truth; and they that are faithful in love shall rest in him; for grace and peace is in his elect. But the wicked shall be punished according to their own devices; who have neglected the just and have revolted from the Lord. Wisdom 3:1-10.

7. St. Mark 12:26-27 is another verse that shows 'dead' in Heaven are involved in earthly lives. "And as concerning the dead that they rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how inthe bush, God spoke to him saying, "I am the God of Abraham........He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you therefore do greatly err."

Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Saint Luke 20: 36-38

"Neither can they die anymore; for they are equal to the angels and are the children of God., being the children of the resurrection. Now that the dead rise again, Moses also showed, at the bush, when he called the Lord, "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; for he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him." And some of the scribes answering, said to him, "Master, thou hast said well." And after that they dared not ask him any more questions."

Commentary of the day :

II Vatican Council
Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the modern world "Gaudium et Spes", § 18 Copyright © Libreria Editrice Vaticana


"He is not God of the dead, but of the living"


It is in the face of death that the riddle a human existence grows most acute. Not only is man tormented by pain and by the advancing deterioration of his body, but even more so by a dread of perpetual extinction. He rightly follows the intuition of his heart when he abhors and repudiates the utter ruin and total disappearance of his own person. He rebels against death because he bears in himself an eternal seed which cannot be reduced to sheer matter. All the endeavors of technology, though useful in the extreme, cannot calm his anxiety; for prolongation of biological life is unable to satisfy that desire for higher life which is inescapably lodged in his breast.
Although the mystery of death utterly beggars the imagination, the Church has been taught by divine revelation and firmly teaches that man has been created by God for a blissful purpose beyond the reach of earthly misery. In addition, that bodily death from which man would have been immune had he not sinned will be vanquished, according to the Christian faith, when man who was ruined by his own doing is restored to wholeness by an almighty and merciful Saviour. For God has called man and still calls him so that with his entire being he might be joined to Him in an endless sharing of a divine life beyond all corruption. Christ won this victory when He rose to life, for by His death He freed man from death. Hence to every thoughtful man a solidly established faith provides the answer to his anxiety about what the future holds for him. At the same time faith gives him the power to be united in Christ with his loved ones who have already been snatched away by death; faith arouses the hope that they have found true life with God.

Pope Benedict XVI
20th World Day of Youth, Homily for the Vigil - Copyright © Libreria Editrice Vaticana



The saints show us the way to attain happiness, they show us how to be truly human. Through all the ups and downs of history, they were the true reformers who constantly rescued it from plunging into the valley of darkness; it was they who constantly shed upon it the light that was needed to make sense - even in the midst of suffering - of God's words spoken at the end of the work of creation: "It is very good".

One need only think of such figures as St Benedict, St Francis of Assisi, St Teresa of Avila, St Ignatius of Loyola, St Charles Borromeo, the founders of 19-century religious orders who inspired and guided the social movement, or the saints of our own day - Maximilian Kolbe, Edith Stein, Mother Teresa, Padre Pio. In contemplating these figures we learn what it means "to adore" and what it means to live according to the measure of the Child of Bethlehem, by the measure of Jesus Christ and of God himself.

The saints, as we said, are the true reformers. Now I want to express this in an even more radical way: only from the saints, only from God does true revolution come, the definitive way to change the world.

In the last century we experienced revolutions with a common programme - expecting nothing more from God, they assumed total responsibility for the cause of the world in order to change it. And this, as we saw, meant that a human and partial point of view was always taken as an absolute guiding principle. Absolutizing what is not absolute but relative is called totalitarianism. It does not liberate man, but takes away his dignity and enslaves him.

It is not ideologies that save the world, but only a return to the living God, our Creator, the guarantor of our freedom, the guarantor of what is really good and true. True revolution consists in simply turning to God who is the measure of what is right and who at the same time is everlasting love. And what could ever save us apart from love?

Dear friends! Allow me to add just two brief thoughts.

There are many who speak of God; some even preach hatred and perpetrate violence in God's Name. So it is important to discover the true face of God. The Magi from the East found it when they knelt down before the Child of Bethlehem. "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father", said Jesus to Philip (Jn 14: 9). In Jesus Christ, who allowed his heart to be pierced for us, the true face of God is seen. We will follow him together with the great multitude of those who went before us. Then we will be travelling along the right path.

I'm sorry San Cho, they do infact intercede on our behalf; this is biblical.

Really? I don't remember ever reading that. Could ya show me a reference? I'm curious to see it.

KFC WRITES:
The word "saints" means "holy ones" or "set-apart ones." The NT designates all believers as "saints" because they are by position holy and set apart to God.

AS YOU SUGGESTED I'VE "DUG" MORE INTO SCRIPTURE AND pretty much CONCUR WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING here. The Biblical Greek and Hebrew words sometimes translate as "saints" meaning literally "Holy ones" or "faithful ones" Acts 9:13; 1Sm 2:9. Typically, these are general terms for God's people who are striving to become more holy Heb. 12:10;2Cor.7:1. I note that in those examples you gave and others, that St. Paul was especially fond of addressing his letters to "all the holy ones".

Nevertheless, the Greek term for 'saints' or 'holy ones' appears in some passages to have a narrower sense.... and on this, I am anxious to hear whether you agree or not. St. Mark's Gospel refers to the 'saints' who rose from the dead after Christ's Resurrection. St.Matt. 27:52 speaks of faithful departed 'saints' being taken by Christ to Heaven. St. Paul speaks of the "holy ones" who accompany CHrist from Heaven when He returns to earth 1Thess.3:13, and I would submit that St. John uses the same term to refer to the "holy ones" in Heaven knowing what is happening on earth and praying to God. The Apoc. 5:8; 8:3.
After that, both the angels and saints in heaven bring to God's throne "the prayers of the holy ones".

It is in this latter, narrower sense that the Catholic Church honors certain departed Christians with the formal title '"saint". The Church gains the confidence that a particular person is in Heaven only after various kinds of evidence is brought forth in the process of canonization which is formal recognition of sainthood.

KFC WRITES:
Never are we suppose to pray for dead and neither do the dead pray for us...not according to the scriptures.
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I disagree.
Catholics pray to Saints and Angels and ask for their help for the same reason they ask Christians on earth to pray for them and assist them in other ways. It pleases God as members of Christ's Body 1Cor. 12:12-27.

In the OT, 2Mac.15:11-14, we learn that through the assistance of 2 OT Saints, Onias and Jeremiah, Judas Maccabeus, a general fighting against Greek occupation and his fighters win the battle. Tobias 12:12 is another time when the Angel Raphael reveals that God sent him to heal the couple Tobit and Sarah after they pray.

In the NT, in Jesus' parable of Lazurus and we find Saints and Angels interceding before God for believers on earth.

Charity demands that we pray for the dead and humility demands that we should ask others to pray for us and pray for others.