From the King Of Blogging, Sean Conners. Various articles and op/ed's on just about anything from A to Z. Politics, religion, entertainment and whatever else seems interesting at the moment. Members and non-members alike are welcomed to participate in th
A lot of talk goes on about the founders and what they saw our nation developing at it's birth. We constantly look for ways to show how the founders would have handled a modern issue based on the Constitution, the formal early acts of governement, and things they said and wrote during their lives.

One issue, the issue of gay marriage and civil unions isn't really covered in the Constitution. And it really wasn't an issue at all in colonial America. Where as it surely existed, writing about sex, especially gay sex, wasn't very common amongst the founders. And we really didn't have any treaties or court rulings involving gay citizens to refer to.

But we do have George Washsington. And where as Washington never, to my knowledge, spoke about same sex marriage per se, he had a deffinite attitude about people and rights.

Here's what George said...

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

Now take that statement into the current debate. does Washington essentially endorse homosexuals marrying the same as anyone else?

Well, no, not specifically. But I don'tthink it's even a stretch to say that Washington would be 100% on board where it comes to civil unions. In fact, if Washington were a politician today in the town that bears his name, he'd probably lead the charge. Or at least endorse the bill allowing same sex couples to have the same "protections of civil government" i.e. - civil unions, as a heterosexual couple. After all, they do, on the whole, certainly meet the other requirements set out by Washington.

I guess that would make Washington and any founder who felt the same the target of right wing pundits like Hannity, Coulter, Prager and Limbaugh. And the scurge of sermons by Falwell, Robertson, Schueller and the rest of their ilk.

I don't know whether Washington would quibble over the the terminology of "marriage" but I am pretty sure he wouldn't be trying to ban it either. After all, none of the rights that our founders put in the bill of rights banned anything. We didn't get that stupid until the 20th century when a bunch of misguided loons decided to ban booze via the Constitution. Fortunately, our representatives repealed that in short order after a decade or so of bootlegging and rampant crime replaced a rational system that could be regulated and taxed.

Comments (Page 2)
4 Pages1 2 3 4 
on Jun 15, 2007
P.S. You might also want to take into consideration that Washington was a military leader, as well. It might put a different spin on what attitudes he might have. I don't think you can for any reason assume he would have opposed a ban on gay marriage. Nothing you have there seems to lead to that conclusion.


Let's not forget they were all heady on Greek ideals of republicanism and democracy. That suggests they would be bang up for the 'philosophical' manlove the Greeks were big fans of.

Maybe the only reason they didn't propose a big gay love-in on pensylvania avenue was cos they weren't idealistic enough...
on Jun 15, 2007
if the judge is following the constitution and honestly (notice i didn't subscribe to any particular ideology there) interprets the law as they are sworn to do, then there is no problem.


Then maybe you can explain to me the purpose of allowing people to have a say in something when one of the choices is already considered unconstitutional before it was even voted for and once it was voted for, we have someone like judge overturn it? It reminds me of the many times my mother asked me if I wanted to go to the store with her and when I said no she would say "well you are going anyways". So why did you ask?
on Jun 15, 2007
Then maybe you can explain to me the purpose of allowing people to have a say in something when one of the choices is already considered unconstitutional before it was even voted for and once it was voted for, we have someone like judge overturn it? It reminds me of the many times my mother asked me if I wanted to go to the store with her and when I said no she would say "well you are going anyways". So why did you ask?


You don't live in a democracy. You live in a republic. The responsibility for law falls on three branches - the executive, in the form of the president; the legislature, in the form of your senate and congress; and the courts.

Each is a check and a balance on the power of other two, with the court's special privilege being the interpretation of the law. Why does it have this power? Because those who work in the courts have the greatest experience with it and are therefore best qualified to define it.

The legislatures are refused the power to tamper with what the courts consider unconstitutional because the courts are entrusted first and foremost with ensuring the protection of the constitution. The legislative houses have responsibility over writing law and the executive oversees all and censures where appropriate.

Didn't they teach you this in school?
on Jun 15, 2007
You don't live in a democracy. You live in a republic. The responsibility for law falls on three branches - the executive, in the form of the president; the legislature, in the form of your senate and congress; and the courts.

Each is a check and a balance on the power of other two, with the court's special privilege being the interpretation of the law. Why does it have this power? Because those who work in the courts have the greatest experience with it and are therefore best qualified to define it.

The legislatures are refused the power to tamper with what the courts consider unconstitutional because the courts are entrusted first and foremost with ensuring the protection of the constitution. The legislative houses have responsibility over writing law and the executive oversees all and censures where appropriate.

Didn't they teach you this in school?


So what you are saying is that I have been lied to since the day I was born? BTW, they also tought me in school that this was a democracy. So I guess someone has their Gov't books crossed.
on Jun 15, 2007
Not lied to, but misled, sure. I don't think there are any functioning democracies in the world, at least none in the way you seem to understand them.
on Jun 15, 2007
our democracy is NOT all about voting.


Hey SC...if you're going to talk about America, do it right. America is a representative republic not a democracy.
on Jun 15, 2007
i just support giving equal status to same sex couples.


They HAVE equal status. They have a legal right to marry anyone of the opposite sex that they would choose to.

While I don't agree with it, SC, one of the legal justifications for marriages as a legal procedure is that often children can result from the union without having to be brought in by legal procedure. Because the children are brought in by biological means and not by court oversight, laws relating to marriage offer certain protections and assurances to those children. When children are adopted, those protections and assurances do not need to be there; they have the protections of the court in the adoption process.

To equate gays who can't marry with blacks in the sixties is abominable until you can show me the "straights only" water fountains and public schools, or the cities where gays are forced to the back of the bus. How often are gays subject to poll taxes, Sean? Pushed out of voting by grandfather clauses?

The Civil Rights movement was a very serious move to rectify a horrible injustice by people who were discriminated against. The "gay rights movement" is an unconscionable move to normalize a behaviour, and to criminalize opposition to that behaviour. It is an end around of the Bill of Rights that seeks to cast its opponents as criminals, Sean, and it is beyond appalling.
on Jun 15, 2007
SC, I apologize. It would seem that what I was taught in school is now considered incorrect. From Wikipedia:



Liberal Democracy
Liberal democracy is a representative democracy along with the protection of minorities, the rule of law, a separation of powers, and protection of liberties (thus the name liberal) of speech, assembly, religion, and property. Conversely, an illiberal democracy is one where the protections that form a liberal democracy are either nonexistent, or not enforced.


18th and 19th centuries
Although not described as a democracy by the founding fathers, the United States has been described as the first liberal democracy on the basis that its founders shared a commitment to the principle of natural freedom and equality.[14] The United States Constitution, adopted in 1788, provided for an elected government and protected civil rights and liberties. However, in the colonial period before 1776, only adult white male property owners could vote; enslaved Africans, free black people and women were not extended the franchise. On the American frontier, democracy became a way of life, with widespread social, economic and political equality.[15] However the frontier did not produce much democracy in Canada, Australia or Russia. By the 1840s almost all property restrictions were ended and nearly all white adult male citizens could vote; and turnout averaged 60-80% in frequent elections for local, state and national officials. The system gradually evolved, from Jeffersonian Democracy to Jacksonian Democracy and beyond. In Reconstruction after the Civil War (late 1860s) the newly freed slaves became citizens with (in the case of men) the right to vote.



WWW Link
on Jun 15, 2007
P.S. You might also want to take into consideration that Washington was a military leader, as well. It might put a different spin on what attitudes he might have. I don't think you can for any reason assume he would have opposed a ban on gay marriage. Nothing you have there seems to lead to that conclusion


none of our allies in europe have any ban on open homosexual people in the military. assuming all military are against it is false.

as barry goldwater said, "you don't have to be straight to shoot straight."

When children are adopted, those protections and assurances do not need to be there; they have the protections of the court in the adoption process.


go tell that to mary cheney and her partner.


The Civil Rights movement was a very serious move to rectify a horrible injustice by people who were discriminated against. The "gay rights movement"


i have said nothing about any other "gay rights" or any movement. i am specifically talking about the right to enter into a civil union, the same rights as a marriage. something gay couples are denied and i believe wrong. you are the one conflating this with other irrelevant issues.



on Jun 15, 2007
go tell that to mary cheney and her partner.


Well, then they need to sue their lawyer. If their lawyer drew up a crappy contract, it's HIS fault, not the law's.

The government should take a position of moral neutrality on issues such as marriage, abortion and responsible drug use, Sean. Giving the government power to regulate is giving them power to abuse.
on Jun 15, 2007
Hey SC...if you're going to talk about America, do it right. America is a representative republic not a democracy.


SC, I apologize. It would seem that what I was taught in school is now considered incorrect. From Wikipedia:


i'm not sure what your point is, but thanks for the input.

it is true we get caught up in all these terms when talking about our government, our society and whatnot. it can get confusing and easy to sub 1 term in for another. perfectly understandable.

don't worry, this is a "lecture, legalism and carefully worded denial" free zone.



on Jun 15, 2007
I will ask you this straight up, Sean: do you support the same rights for polygamy or polyandry? Assuming that ONLY consenting adults are part of the relationship? IF not, Why not?
on Jun 15, 2007
"none of our allies in europe have any ban on open homosexual people in the military. assuming all military are against it is false."


Assuming there isn't military bias against it, even in nations that allow it, is irresponsible. But, then, so is using a man from 200 years ago as a hand puppet to promote one's own morality...
on Jun 15, 2007
Assuming there isn't military bias against it, even in nations that allow it, is irresponsible. But, then, so is using a man from 200 years ago as a hand puppet to promote one's own morality...


just the fact that you consider homosexuality a "morality" is why we can't talk about this. it has nothing to do with morality. being gay is not a choice. and the only people who do think it's a choice are quite frankly, morons on this issue.
and i don't know if you meant it in the way it could be read, but it's not my "morality" in the 1st place as you assign it. in other words, i am not gay. but i do support their right to serve in the military and enjoy the benefits of a civil union equivalent to marriage. i could care less what anyone does in the privacy of their own consenting adult life. you obviously do.

on Jun 15, 2007
I will ask you this straight up, Sean: do you support the same rights for polygamy or polyandry? Assuming that ONLY consenting adults are part of the relationship? IF not, Why not?


honestly gid, i probably don't know enough about all of those types of relationships to make a call one way or another. but i certainly would hear their side of the equation and see if it applies to what i believe is constitutionally protected.

maybe since those types of relationships haven't been at teh forefront, i haven't really examined them. plus, i have known many homosexuals in my life. i can't say i know any polygimists and such.

i can say i would be willing to listen to both sides. but i can't say i've ever reached any conclusions on that. but i appreciate you askin. and it is food for thought. it is also notable that you asked about actual types of relationships that do exist, not some off the wall "beastiality" type question a la rick santorum.

4 Pages1 2 3 4