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not things that you do...
Published on April 27, 2007 By Sean Conners aka SConn1 In US Domestic
It's easy to defend the things we like. It's easy to defend the people we like. It's easy to conceive that the things and people we like and want for ourselves should be our "right."

But rights aren't about things we like. Rights are about things we don't like. Defending free speech is about defending your enemies right to speak. It's about speech and things that fall under the 1st ammendment that we despise. When the Supreme Court upheld Larry flynt's rights, they weren't endorsing Hustler or even what he said specifically about Rev. Falwell. They were defending his right to speak, not his actual speech.

In fact, the end result, as history has shown, is that it is the reverand's speech rights that have benefitted over the years since he lost his case with the Hustler publisher more than Flynt has benefitted. Isn't it ironic that the case that defended the preacher's foe back then has been cited, directly or inderectly in protecting religious speech?

I hate flag burning. I think it's a disgrace. I can think of 1000 better ways to protest a grievance with the government. But I don't want to ban it. I don't want to take away your right to burn it. And even if 100% of us don't want to burn a flag, I still don't want to ban it. Afterall, other than the potential fire hazard and slight environmental impact, it really hurts no one. It is an exercize of free speech. If the local police want to arrest them for arson, ok. But leave the Constitution alone.

I'm not the biggest fan of guns in the world. Where i've done some hunting and have no problems at all with anyone who hunts for food especially, that's not what the second ammendment is about to me. The 2nd ammendment, to me, is the granting of the right of arming themselves to the people. This was about the distrust of government, arguably justified, in my view, by the people. Since the government can crush the people with a gun, the people should be able to stop an unjust government with that same gun. It's the same checks and balances theme that runs throughout our Constitution.

The people, in this context, is the law abiding. felons who have shown their lack of an ability to use a gun lawfully shouldn't have one. Someone who is mentally ill in a way that could affect their judgement, should not have a gun.

Keep in mind, the forefathers didn't really have much of a concept of mental illness. Most of the mentally ill to them were demonically posessed. But even with the misdiagnosis, i'm convinced they didn't make it a practice to hand a demon a musket.

And as far as hunting weapons go, for them, they were pretty much one and the same musket. But regardless, I am confident that a society that primarily hunted for their food with those muskets weren't even considering taking away a gun from a hunter in the hills of Pennsylvania. The colonies were a little spread out for that to be practical.

But the guns in the towns, the ones that weren't being used so much, would be the more immediate concern to a government that wanted to surpress a people. That was the check on government that they didn't want messed with.

Fast forward to today.

Today, there is a big difference between a hunting gun and one used to kill in many instances. yes, there are "dual purpose" weapons, but many guns only have 1 intended purpose.

And I despise assault weapons. We all know, regardless of where we stand on gun issues, that these guns are made to kill. And not bambi.

But the principle of the 2nd ammendment is about checks and balances. It's all about the right of the people to keep their government in check by being on an equal footing arms wise.

In fact, one could extend that to mean that any law abiding citizen should be able to own any piece of arms they can safely and law-abingly own. A tank? Yes. A missle? If it can be safely contained and maintained, sure. If the military can own it, so can we. Maybe if the world had more policies like that since the days of muskets, all governments, not just ours, might actually give the respect to the people they serve if they couldn't just use their power of the gun to oppress and supress any and all unpopular ideas and thought.

I'm not sure I go that far in this day and age, after all, we are where we are. And allowing anyone to own sophisticated pieces of arms with nuclear capability isn't very smart. Especially since we can't seem to keep guns out of the hands of people who are mentally ill and an imminent danger to themselves and others.

But let's assume we do actually "bite the bullet" and start a responsible system to keep the guns out of the hands of the derranged and violently criminal. The question of the check against the government still remains.

And i'll still detest assault weapons.

I still personally choose not to have any guns in my home, which has small children.

And i'll still support the 2nd ammendment.



Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 27, 2007
My mom hates guns...which is why I've never even had the chance to fire one. The only time a gun was ever in my house was when my dad borrowed one to try and kill this huge dog/wolf hybrid that killed a bunch of our chickens and rabbits. I'm all for the right to own weapons...I just wish people were a bit smarter and less murderous when they have them.

~Zoo
on Apr 27, 2007
But the principle of the 2nd ammendment is about checks and balances. It's all about the right of the people to keep their government in check by being on an equal footing arms wise.



sorry you almost got this right

and i am guoteing from the 2nd ammendmet


"the right to bear arms is given to the people to make the government think twice before entering your house"

and who are the people who want to get rid of the 2nd ammendment. why it is the people who want to be able to enter your house without being shot. sounds to me like the 2nd ammendment is doing it's job
on Apr 27, 2007
The 2nd ammendment, to me, is the granting of the right of arming themselves to the people.


Not quite, Sean. The Bill of Rights does not grant a single right to the people. Rather, they RESTRICT the ability of the government to attempt to infringe on those rights. This is a key distinction because in our government, rights emanate from the people upwards, rather than from the government down.

I suggest you read "Good to be King" by Michael Badnarik. He's far more eloquent in expressing this point than I am.

"the right to bear arms is given to the people to make the government think twice before entering your house"


danie,

UMM, that's not the second amendment or any part of it, sorry.

on Apr 27, 2007
sorry it is in the 2nd ammendment becouse that is where i read it

so don't tell me it isn't part of the secound amendment
on Apr 27, 2007
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

That is the text of the second amendment entirely, danielost. If you can find the text you quoted in that, I'll kiss your ass and post the video on YouTube.

You read a COMMENTARY on the second amendment, no doubt. That is NOT the same as the document itself.
on Apr 27, 2007
sorry stupid you think a title is the whole amendment

if that is so then there is no right to free speach either

i read the whole amendment becouse i wanted to know what it said

i guess if i wanted to i could go to the library in town i could find it

and no i did not read a commentary on the amendment i sat down and read the amendment

now your not only telling me what i read but what it said

the secound amendment is 4 or 5 paragraphs long that sentence is buried in the 3rd paragraph

and don't you ever try to indicate that i am as stupid as the demos in washington are they have never read anything
on Apr 27, 2007
sorry stupid you think a title is the whole amendment

if that is so then there is no right to free speach either

i read the whole amendment becouse i wanted to know what it said

i guess if i wanted to i could go to the library in town i could find it

and no i did not read a commentary on the amendment i sat down and read the amendment

now your not only telling me what i read but what it said

the secound amendment is 4 or 5 paragraphs long that sentence is buried in the 3rd paragraph

and don't you ever try to indicate that i am as stupid as the demos in washington are they have never read anything


No, that IS the amendment, danielost. You are making an amendment that doesn't exist!

Like I said, you read a COMMENTARY on the second amendment. I have read all of the amendments and know pretty much what they say.

Go ahead, SHOW me this amendment that YOU created, danielost. Since you insist that is the wording of the second amendment, it should be easy to find. The truth is, you are flat out wrong, you know it, and you don't want to admit it.
on Apr 27, 2007
if that is so then there is no right to free speach either


Uh...that would be the first amendment wouldn't it?
on Apr 27, 2007
Sources:

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am2


http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentii


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution




Next time you call me a liar, you better make DAMN sure you have the facts on your side!

on Apr 27, 2007
if that is so then there is no right to free speach either


Uh...that would be the first amendment wouldn't it?


yes that is the first amendment but the title doesn't say you have the right to free speach it just says that congress cannot pass laws restricting the peaceful assimblige of the people


(A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.)

since when has any lawyer written anything that is only one sentence long

that is a title not the amendment

i go into the san fransisco city library and i pick up a book called the bill of rights

and i am so stupid that i can't tell that from a book titled the meaning of the bill of rights

all of those links you provided lead to web pages that explain the amendment they do not show the actual amendment

and i don't believe i used the word lier you did but i didn't


and so i will say it again do not tell me what i read THE ADOCITY OF YOU OR ANYONE WHO HAS NEVER MET ME TO TELL ME WHAT I READ just becouse it doesn't agrue with you


THE FIRST THING I EVER LEARNED WAS TO QUESTION EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE

and the last thing the demos want you to do is to question them
on Apr 27, 2007
all of those links you provided lead to web pages that explain the amendment they do not show the actual amendment


If you know how to search a site, they all contain the EXACT text of the document, danielost. The second amendment is exactly as I posted it above. The wikipedia article lists the text if you cared enough to read it.

I never called you a liar, danielost. You are ignorant and illinformed, but not a liar. But you IMPLICITLY called me a liar by challenging what I posted without providing source. If the second amendment was written as you say, why the grand conspiracy to hide it? Why is it you were granted the only legitimate copy of the US Constitution? A conspiracy, perhaps?

If you'll look, one of those sites I linked is Cornell's law site. Sad that Cornell is teaching its law students the wrong information. Perhaps you'll have to become a law professor there, danielost, since you have access to the "secret" writings of the founding fathers.

The text of the Second Amendment to the Constitution is EXACTLY as I listed it above, danielost. If you actually cared to study it, you would find it to be true.

The quote you posted is good commentary on the Second Amendment, but it is NOT the second amendment, nor is it even a PART of the second amendment. As I've said several times in these replies, PROVE ME WRONG! You won't because you can't, and you know it.

I suppose next you'll be telling me about the "lost" 23rd amendment providing the 3rd Saturday in April to be Monkey Spanking Day!
on Apr 27, 2007
By the way, the book you checked out was a book TEACHING about the Bill of Rights, danielost. If you would have looked at it, you would have certainly found it had an author, a dead giveaway that the book was WRITING about the Bill of Rights. Again, the quote you gave was DAMN good commentary, but it was not any part of the Second Amendment. Here are the Bill of Rights, for your reading pleasure:

Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


on Apr 27, 2007
Gid: I think it's pretty clear that daniel rides the short bus.
on Apr 27, 2007
i will tell you what if you think that the real text of the bill of rights is on the internet then you should go find those people in the white suits


I WILL SAY THIS AGAIN YOU STUPID IDIOT I READ IT AT THE LIBRARY FROM A BOOK TITLED THE BILL OF RIGHTS OR THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES IT WAS 20 YEARS AGO

AND IT WASN'T SOMEONE IDEA ABOUT WHAT IT SAID AS ALL OF THE WEB LINKS I HAVE LOOKED AT TODAY INCLUDING WIKI IS DOING

SO TAKE YOUR FOUL MOUTH AND SHUT UP

YOU START CALLING ME NAMES LIKE AN IDIOT AND THEN THINK I AM GOING TO ALLOW YOU TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE I STARTED THE NAME CALLING

YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO GO TO THE LIBRARY AND READ A REAL BOOK
on Apr 27, 2007
NON OF THOSE ARE THE CONTENTS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS THEY ARE SUMMARIES OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS

Gid: I think it's pretty clear that daniel rides the short bus.



next you'll tell me that jesus christ wasn't real even with all of the evidence to prove otherwise


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion


why is the congress makeing laws establishing a religion

i refer to the so called non religion laws as far as i am concerned non religion is religion and it is being forced down everyones throat
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