sounds like you are a lil more involved than the average parishoner

there is clear evidence of the aiding and passively accepting nazi practices before and during WWII.

my grandmother who was in her 20's during WWII and a practicing Catholic today denouces the CC for what they did during WWII. She is very vocal about what she remembers hearing during those times. She speaks often and loudly about the vatican being spared and bypassed for a reason. Everything else was being taken over but not the house of the Pope? Why not?

Were the Nazi's superstious? Were they afraid of God? I don't think so.

sounds like you are a lil more involved than the average parishoner

nah, she's just a sold out Catholic.

Were the Nazi's superstious? Were they afraid of God? I don't think so.

Maybe because Vatican City is in the middle of Rome, Italy, and Italy was a German Ally?

Sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke.

"Were the Nazi's superstious? Were they afraid of God? I don't think so."

No, they were afraid of their own people. Because of the cultural biases they could get away with what they did to the Jews, and the homosexuals, etc. It might not have gone so well for them had they started dragging priests off to the ovens.

"The CC is the only institution in the entire world that has a consistent life doctrine. There was no "nazi exception or "supporting nazi's". Don't take my word for it, check out some of those books from your local library and see for yourself."

That's only true for the modern church, lula. They most certainly have not had this 'life doctrine' since Peter. Throughout the dark and middle ages they were a different organization.

As for the Nazi collaboration, I don't think you can really deny it. You can excuse it, you can make it seem more understandable, and maybe it was totally out of fear and "against their will". What you can't do is say that it didn't happen, because you even admit that it was drafted in writing.

In my talks with you I've seen you have a hard time separating "the church" from the people in it. Take out the people and all you have left is a lot of velvet, gold, and statuary.

That's only true for the modern church, lula.

Unfortunately.

BAKERSTREET POSTS: They most certainly have not had this 'life doctrine' since Peter. Throughout the dark and middle ages they were a different organization.

With all due respect, you err Bakerstreet. The doctrines which make up the one, true, catholic and apostolic Church are not man-made. They were given her by CHrist , and can not or ever will be changed. The CC teaches all that Christ taught , whether His teaching was explicit or implicit. St.John 21:25.

Christ established His Church and declared the forces of evil would not prevail against it. This implies the perpetual retention of truth taught by Christ, forbidding its corruption. He commanded her to teach all nation, "all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you all days even to the consummation of the world." St. Matt. 28:20. His presence guarantees that she will ever teach doctrine identical with His own.

He promised that the Holy Spirit would abide with the Church forever, undoubtedly a pledge of perpetual infallibility. St. John 14:16. The early Fathers of the Church insist upon the infallibility in matters of doctrine (faith) and reason also tells us that the unity of the Church for over 2000 years could not be maintained if she could fail in her teaching of the truth; her cathollicity (universal) demands expansion without loss or change of the teaching, while her apostolicity requires perpetual duration of an unchanged Apostolic doctrine. St. Peter was number 1 and Pope Benedict XVI is 265th.

The fact is that the Arians told the Church that her foundations wouldn't last in the 4th century; the Greeks in the 9th; the Protestant Revolters in the 16th; the Rationalists in the 18th and at present, the Modernists are the chief people who claim Christ didn't keep His promises. The only one who is not worrying about such things is the Church herself. She just keeps going her way, never dying, but ever increasing.

The CC is composed of human beings knit together by the authority of Christ. The Church is Christ's teaching authority on earth. We rejoice in His perpetual protection and assistance.
I admit without hesitation that all through the ages members of the Church, from St.Peter on, have departed from these teachings (the Faith) and failed in one way or another in witnessing to truth and done evil deeds.


BAKERSTREET POSTS:
As for the Nazi collaboration, I don't think you can really deny it. You can excuse it, you can make it seem more understandable, and maybe it was totally out of fear and "against their will". What you can't do is say that it didn't happen, because you even admit that it was drafted in writing.

In my response to LK, I have denied it....and given at length...reasons why. I continue to deny it and will until the accuser can show me definitive proof, not inuendo or propaganda from anti-Catholic ax grinders urban myths.

Sr. Marchionne and other notables have laid out unequivically that, yes, Cardinal Pacelli signed a Concordat with Germany that promised religious freedoms. It lasted 5 days before Hitler broke every promise, starting with abolishing the Catholic Youth Movement and forbidding Catholic newspapers and visible Church activity. For that, the Concordat wasnullified and not worth the paper it was printed on, and Hitler who had long apostasized from the Faith was excommunicated from the Church. Hitler used the state as a club against Catholicism.

There is an enormous cross beneath Castelgandolfo that was given to PPius XII at the end of WWII by Jewish refugees whom he had hidden in the rooms, cellars, and passages of his summer residence. It's estimated that 12,000 refugees were sheltered there and 36 babies were born in the Pope's private apartment. Through diplomacy, public statements, and underground activity, Pius saved 800,000 Jews alone.

PPius is most often accused of being silent. Yet, he had a duty to condemn evil and he fulfilled it in language that was readily understood around the world. His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, condemns racism and totalitarianism. It was released only 2 months after the outbreak of the war. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency, the equivalent of the APress, described it as "an unqualified condemnation of racism, totalitarianism and materialsim". The Allies air dropped 88,000 copies of it over Germany, where the Nazis would not permit it to be printed.

KFC--All the Catholics that I knew who lived through this terrible time, including my parents, prayed during this time especially for the Holy Father and all those soldiers fighting in the war. Perhaps, Almighty God answered their prayers and prevented Hitler's wrath upon the Vatican. He knew there were thousands of people who were hidden there.

According to Dalin, food, water, sewer, electricity and communications were all controlled by the the Italian gov., Hitler's ally. After Italy's surrender, Hitler actually gave orders to "occupy as soon as possible the Vatican and Vatican City" and "massacre Pius XII with the entire Vatican." On the other hand, Pius possessed political influence, a world-wide audience, and all the resources of the CC and he did not hesitate to make use of these to aid the victims of the war, especially "those hundreds of thousands who...sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or progressive extinction" as he stated in his 1942 Christmas Message. (Dalin, A Righteous Gentile).

The Vatican supplemented its efforts to hide the Jews by issuing thousands of false documents, baptismal documents and passports. There was no way PPius could have halted the Nazi butchery, but he did all he could to alliaviate the suffering caused by the war. At his death, so many tributes were made that the NY Times could not list all of them. In the SE of Jerusalem, in the Negeb, there stands a forest that was planted in acknowledgment of the Jewish lives he saved. On tree for every life...and the forest has 800,000 trees.

"With all due respect, you err Bakerstreet. The doctrines which make up the one, true, catholic and apostolic Church are not man-made. They were given her by CHrist , and can not or ever will be changed. The CC teaches all that Christ taught , whether His teaching was explicit or implicit. St.John 21:25. "

WOW, then somehow I have stepped into an alternate reality, because in the one I came from the Catholic Church had a VERY different track record in the dark and middle ages than the one that you are describing. I think we've been through this before, and I cited you direct citations of the popes and clergy being responsible for things you tried to push off on secular authority. They most certainly did not have a policy of 'life' in those times.

The difference is, your reality is based upon your belief, and where reality departs from your belief, you reject reality. For that reason, the Church was never really responsible for violence and murder during what you still call the "holy" inquisition. They of course couldn't have been responsible for tens of thousands of people who were tortured or killed for witchcraft.

And by extension, the church couldn't have had any concordance with the Nazis. There were Catholics that helped the Jews. There were Japanese that helped the Jews, believe it or not. The role of the Catholic Church as a whole, or officially, with the Nazis is something that I have to admit that I just don't know one way or the other, and probably never will.

The fact is, though, that you can never make a statement like that about the church. The church is already defined for you, and no matter what the reality is, that definition will be your story. You "know", whether you really know or not. That kind of blind faith in mankind is what people so often fear and loathe about your religion.

BAKERSTREET POSTS:
The difference is, your reality is based upon your belief, and where reality departs from your belief, you reject reality. For that reason, the Church was never really responsible for violence and murder during what you still call the "holy" inquisition. They of course couldn't have been responsible for tens of thousands of people who were tortured or killed for witchcraft.

I know well, Bakerstreet, that people loathe Catholicism and the Church. What I reject is the error that these people who loathe the Church dream up and disemmanate for public consumption.

That's why so many turn to the Inquisition as a weapon against the Church. I admit now, as I did earlier, that real crimes against the dignity of the human person were sometimes committed by Catholics involved in the Inquisition. That does not, however, take away Christ's gift of infalliblility of the Church. Many people, including you I guess, assume that the infallibility of the Church is synonymous with a claim of impeccability (that is, sinlessness)of her adherants. And that's why I keep separating the two since the Church makes no claim to sinlessness. I have always said the fact that her members are often profoundly sinful.

What you would like me to do is concede that since bad things have been done by Catholics (including Popes), the Church is irredeemably corrupt or not the Church that Jesus Christ established according to the Gospels. I won't.

Back to the Inqisition. I know that Protestants often turn to the Inquisition (notably the Spanish Inquisition) because, in the English-speaking world, most Protestants have unthinkingly retained a deep prejudice against Spanish Christianity that dates back to Elizabethan agitprop against the Spanish (against whom Elizabeth was engaged in war, piracy and state-sponsored terrorism). We hear a great deal about the Spanish Inquisitors as Icons of Evil because our cultural background has trained us to do so ever since English propaganda found it to its benefit to demonize the Spanish. That is why we do not hear nearly so much about English Protestant religious persecution against the Irish under Cromwell. Nor do we hear much about 16th Century German Protestant witchcraft hysteria (the number of whose burnings and torturings dwarfed those executed by the Spanish Inquisition by fifty to one). Nor about Protestant England's behavior during the Irish Potato Famine in the 1840s, an act of calculated genocide which cut the Irish population in half by shipping Irish crops to England for sale while the Irish starved. In short, many Protestants who complain of the Inquisition as having a sort of iconic quality have a rather simple view of history. Violence was committed by all sides, not just by Catholics. Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing Catholics or ever would, but it does make the crimes of the Inquisition something besides a manifestation of some peculiar Catholic wickedness unknown to other stripes of Christianity. Have you ever noticed that, Bakerstreet?

You say that during the Inquisition, 'tens of thousands" of people were tortured or killed for witchcraft (by Catholics). Where do you get that that figure from? Was it 30,000 or closer to 90,000? If it is from Fundamentalists? If so, it's been pretty well determined that those figures have been either exaggerated or worse, fabricated. An error of 100 or even 500 % would not be large in piecing together what facts are available. But an error of 2.5 million %? If you take a conservative figure that Catholic scholars accept (around 4,000 executions total, throughout the history of the Inquisition), that is roughly the size of the error in the figure given in The Mystery of Babylon Revealed, a book that states that 95 million people were killed during the Inquisition. Jimmy Swaggart once proclaimed that the Church murdered some 20 million people during the existence of the Inquisition.

What is needed by all disputants is perspective and an openess to hear both sides.

Walking and talking Catholicism is not blind faith. George Kendell of the Wanderer, a Catholic national weekly, said it best. "Catholicism is not just a collection of dogmas or theological propositions. It is a culture, a coherent way of seeing the world, a light in terms of which the world makes sense and has meaning."

"That's why so many turn to the Inquisition as a weapon against the Church. I admit now, as I did earlier, that real crimes against the dignity of the human person were sometimes committed by Catholics involved in the Inquisition. That does not, however, take away Christ's gift of infalliblility of the Church. Many people, including you I guess, assume that the infallibility of the Church is synonymous with a claim of impeccability (that is, sinlessness)of her adherants. And that's why I keep separating the two since the Church makes no claim to sinlessness. I have always said the fact that her members are often profoundly sinful. "

Maybe we are differing on the definition of infallible.

"Main Entry: in·fal·li·ble Pronunciation: (")in-'fa-l&-b&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin infallibilis, from Latin in- + Late Latin fallibilis fallible 1 : incapable of error : UNERRING 2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : CERTAIN 3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals - in·fal·li·bil·i·ty /-"fa-l&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun - in·fal·li·bly /-'fa-l&-blE/ adverb"

Now, when you can show that official church documents, even the Popes at the time, supported and originated the wrongness, how do you separate that from the "Church"? Are you trying to claim that the Church is the buildings? The vestments? Obviously the church's authority is in the hands of the Pope and the church leaders.

Do you believe that indulgences were holy reality? Do you think you could buy a family member out of purgatory? If the church later rejects the actions of itself, has it really been "infallible"?

" That is why we do not hear nearly so much about English Protestant religious persecution against the Irish under Cromwell."

Maybe you haven't heard much about it. I have. I don't think that protestantism shares the idea that their church is infallible, or that the words of mortal men are somehow higher just because of the kind of vestments they wear.

So, we can deal with our wrongs easily. We don't believe in an infallible church, nor do we believe we should follow the works of men unquestioningly. We don't believe men can get together and decide what happens regarding our souls.

P.S. I just want to add, one more time, for Lula and Dr. Guy that I do not hate the Catholic Church, and in ways I respect it. When I point out things like the inquisition or indulgences I'm not making a "mine over yours" argument. I don't believe any religion that man puts his hands on is infallible.

I grew up with Catholic friends. I even spent time watching reruns of Bishop Sheen, and still do when I flip past the otherwise wasteland of "christian" channel programming. I don't believe your religion is less, and in ways I respect it even more than some. I just don't believe it is any more "holy" than mine or anyone else's.

I don't believe your religion is less, and in ways I respect it even more than some. I just don't believe it is any more "holy" than mine or anyone else's.

well put, and sometimes that "respect" gets lost in the heat of debate.

BAKERSTREET POSTS:
Maybe we are differing on the definition of infallible.


That's what I'm thinking too. I shall as soon as I can explain the charism of infallibility of the Church as soon as I can get all my info together on it. It may be a while though.

No, Bakerstreet, the CC is not the buildings. Any more than the mosque is Islam. When I speak of the Church as divine or infallible, I mean the Faith. Christ established one true Church and one true, catholic and Apostolic Faith. The one true Church is the Catholic Church and the one true Faith is Catholicism. The Church is all the people who practice the one Faith. Dr. Guy explained this rather well on another blog. I believe Catholicism is the only true religion on the planet. All the others are false; some are 100% false and others are partially false, having some truth and error. That's why they can't/don't or won't claim infallibillity. Only the Catholic religion which is Christianity, is 100% true doctrine from Christ Himself. This is where infallibility comes in. The gift of Infallibility has only to do with doctrine and morals...

As a quietly devout Catholic, I find this thread fascinating. I believe that most mainstream practising Catholics are not without their doubts as to issues like infallibility. To see this exchange of argument is anything but offensive, Baker. Indeed, thank you.

Thanks also to Lula, your knowledge and resoucefulness are daunting. You argue like a theologian. It would be interesting, perhaps on another thread, to discuss the more personal side of faith.

Please, carry on.

"Only the Catholic religion which is Christianity, is 100% true doctrine from Christ Himself. This is where infallibility comes in. The gift of Infallibility has only to do with doctrine and morals..."

But doctrinally and morally the people who are in charge of the church have not been infallible. Had you been alive during a time when they were selling indulgences, would you have defended them? Was that not doctrine?

P.S. I just want to add, one more time, for Lula and Dr. Guy that I do not hate the Catholic Church, and in ways I respect it. When I point out things like the inquisition or indulgences I'm not making a "mine over yours" argument. I don't believe any religion that man puts his hands on is infallible.

Nor would I ever accuse you of it. I am enjoying the back and forth, and will not comment on some of the misconceptions that I have already addressed. I prefer to read and see the jousting.

Anyone can argue against the Catholic religion, and indeed I would be surprised that any non-Catholic would not (since it is not their faith). Arguing against some of the teachings (not doctrine), practices (again not doctrine) or tenets (doctrine) done in an intelluctual and honest way is not hate. As faith is not fact (other than if I have it or not), there is no universal right or wrong answer for all mankind. I believe my faith is the right one. If I did not, why would I profess and/or practice it. But the key word is "beleive".