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showing their position on life to be consistant
Published on December 29, 2006 By Sean Conners aka SConn1 In Current Events
In America, we often have debates concerning "the right to life" concerning various procedures that occur from before our departure from the womb to the end of our life. Good people, many of whom are Christians and Catholics will debate whether it is ok or not to abort a fetus, euthenize a terminally ill patient or put a serial killer to death. And we, reflecting our diversity, will take up various positions along the way.



Some will stand on permitting abortion but opposing the death penalty. Some will stand on the opposite ground. But not the Catholic Church. Here,, unlike in other areas, the church is probably the most consistant entity in the debate.



The Catholic Church's philosphy on life is simple. Man has no right to take it. Man has no right to end a pregnancy. Man has no right to perform any kind of "mercy killing" of any terminal patient. Man has no right to put someone to death, no matter what their crimes are.



The Catholic Church pays strict adherence to the commandment that tells us "thou shalt not kill." The Catholic Church sees no justification to kill whatsoever. This has remained consistant since after the Crusades and the middle ages. And at least in the modern era, they have remined uberconsistant on their position.



My hat certainly is tipped to the Church here. Where I do criticize and scrutinize some of their doctrine and practices, this particular one is at least not contradictory of itself. American evangelicals and conservative christians often confuse their "culture of life" philosophy by limiting it to abortion and Terri Shaivo, while endorsing wars, supporting the death penalty and allowing thousands of others who aren't Terri Shaivo to be euthenized without protest or congressional intervention. The Catholic Church, at least officially, remains consistant.



The latest statement of that consistncy came this week when the CC officially declared their view that putting Saddam Hussein to death was immoral and wrong. The church said in it's statement that hanging Saddam was simply committing another crime against humanity to somehow pay for other crimes and had nothing to do with justice.



Are they right? I don't know. Like most Americans, I like to think that I support life. I am against the death penalty. Tho my views on abortion, politically, at least, do not reflect the church's view. I am curious to how other Christians, and namely Catholics see the execution of Hussein. Will conservative Catholics side with their President or their Pope when it comes to this issue and the issue of the death penalty in general which the CC opposes and is uncompromising on? To me, at least, it could be an interesting discussion. I would be curious to how an American who calls themselves anything that puts them in concert with the GOP concept of "culture of life" looks at this. I would also be curious to know why those who support this way of thinking, that if the Church deems something immoral or wrong, that they should try to make America conform to those standards, rationalize this in their own mind. For example, anti-gay marriage stances are often defended with religion. But those same people will defy the pope when it comes to going to war or killing those who society has ruled a criminal so bad that they should not be allowed to live. Hmmmmmmmm.....

Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 29, 2006
The catholics assisted the nazis to escape - the nazis were killers.


did certain individual catholics help them or was it the official doctrine to help them?
on Dec 29, 2006
did certain individual catholics help them or was it the official doctrine to help them?


I have no idea, as I said I have heard the rumours that the Vatican - assisted them in escaping - how true, I do not know

on Dec 29, 2006
And Sean there is no need to be so bloody short tempered!


it's not short tempered...it's being frustrated with you getting all wrapped up in nonsense and things that are just merely "window dressing" on the article. the main point is to discuss the church's opposition to suddam's execution and my curiosity on how practicing catholics reconcile that when they support his death.

you want to argue semantics and dates and church history...and that has NOTHING to do with this.

even if the church was "bloodthirsty" until vatican II in the 1960's it doesn't matter. their MODERN position is anti death penalty, period. that is the premise. the question is how do catholics side...with the church, or with the president?

everything else was just "fluff" ..please don't get all wrapped up in it next time,,,ok?
on Dec 29, 2006
He's short tempered like I am snotty. You just have to accept it... lol

My point though is once you accept killing as valid in certain circumstances, like self defense and "justifiable" war, then it is just a sliding scale. I think you share some of my qualms about the moral authority of the "Church", so to me it is tough to use them as a guide.

People don't believe me, but abortion isn't necessarily a religious issue with me. I don't hold with many traditional religious ideals at all as evidenced with the fact that I am despised by both secularist Atheists and religious people at the same time, lol. I see *natural*, readily apparent reasons for both an anti-abortion stance, AND the necessity for capital punishment.

To me it is more about the ideal vs. reality. To me our understanding of God, religion, whatever should be based upon the realities of life, not esoteric, Platonic ideals that only work in a vacuum. Human standards of ethics need to have reason behind them, and while I respect people like the Amish who hold stolidly to an ideal, I don't think it is really realistic or even rational.
on Dec 29, 2006
everything else was just "fluff" ..please don't get all wrapped up in it next time,,,ok?


but i am a girl I like fluff!

He's short tempered like I am snotty. You just have to accept it... lol


and I do , but with nil grace!

no harm done

The point I was trying to make was that the history of the church should not be discounted as it is the very bricks that hold it all together, The latest pope was quoting from something that dated back to god knows when and it caused an argument throughout the world. So they obviously refer to past historical documents etc for guidance moral or otherwise.

The Catholic Church's philosphy on life is simple. Man has no right to take it. Man has no right to end a pregnancy. Man has no right to perform any kind of "mercy killing" of any terminal patient. Man has no right to put someone to death, no matter what their crimes are.


And in light of this paragraph that speaks out so loudly about their philosphy - i felt justified in pointing out (maybe not so clearly) that their philosophy is perhaps one that they amend and twist to suit what and when they want...such as burning witches?

Your paragraph points out their philosophy so strongly and makes it sound so fixed in its convictions - for me it makes a (not sure how to put this) it makes their philosophy sound two faced? two sided?
on Dec 29, 2006
But that is not the point of the discussion so I am sorry
on Dec 29, 2006
Sean, the Catholic Church's position, as laid out by none other than the Pope, is NOT what you make it out to be.

"Evangelium Vitae" (The Gospel of Life) issued March 25, 1995 after four years of consultations with the world's Roman Catholic bishops, John Paul II wrote that execution is only appropriate "in cases of absolute necessity, in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society. "

Clearly, the death is permissible under certain circumstances. While it should be a last resort, the Pope allows that in certain circumstances it is allowed. One such circumstance is in the defense of society.

You can read the entirety at the Vatican's own site at
Link

It is rather long, the portion that I have referenced is in section 56.

By the way, the Spanish Inquisition did not end until 1834. It began in the 15th century, but went on for 350 years. Juan Antonio Llorente, who served as Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801 estimated that close to 32,000 people were killed during this time.

I'm not throwing out random facts here. You are overstating the Catholic Church's opposition to the death penalty and I think that I have pretty clearly supported this by quoting the Pope. Moreover, the Catholic Church supported murder itself as a tool until about 200 years ago. In modern times, the Church has supported murderous regimes (the Nazis, the Croats, regimes in Africa) as long as those regimes allowed Catholics to practice.
on Dec 29, 2006
I'm pro-life and pro-death penalty. Sure, to many it is a contradiction, but like you say not much more so than when I see someone who is "pro-choice" and anti-death penalty. How do you really weigh the killing of a child (which, while debatable, is what people like me consider a "fetus" to be), and the killing of someone who has committed an offense against humanity grave enough to merit death?


I could have written this....WAY TO GO Baker!

He's short tempered like I am snotty.


Agree here also. We're on a roll....LOL.

I don't hold with many traditional religious ideals at all as evidenced with the fact that I am despised by both secularist Atheists and religious people at the same time, lol.


and I know you take great pride in this.

but then I'm not a religious person either......I actually agree here as well but I'm sure not quite the way you do.

So 3 for 3. I can hardly stand it. Something must be wrong here but I'm not holding my breath either.

In the Hebrew version, the Old Testament says "You shall not commit murder" not "Thou shall not kill." These are very different in meaning, of course. A State ordered execution is not a murder.


They are totally two diff words. There is nothing biblically wrong with capital punishment. But there is alot wrong with "personal" vengeance. They are not one and the same by a long shot.

I say Saddam truly earned everything that's coming to him. I do, as I always do tho, hope that even Saddam will meet God before his death and truly repent for what he's done. I don't wish hell on anyone...even Saddam.







on Dec 30, 2006
"but then I'm not a religious person either..."


...at least I can admit I'm snotty...
on Dec 30, 2006
In the Hebrew version, the Old Testament says "You shall not commit murder" not "Thou shall not kill." These are very different in meaning, of course. A State ordered execution is not a murder.


They are totally two diff words. There is nothing biblically wrong with capital punishment.


Okay I have to put the question up here

If Christ was put to death and went willingly - that means he agreed with local government laws.

Somewhere in the bible he also says give to Caesar what is Caesars and says things about obeying the law of the governments in place.

That being said - we must live by the laws of man and live by the laws of the word of god, the two can lived side by side --- carefully!

If this is the case - why does the Catholic Church not agree with capital punishment and try to influence the governments in play? What gives the Church the right (not the word I wanted) to impose their own man interpreted belief onto society?

on Dec 30, 2006
If Christ was put to death and went willingly - that means he agreed with local government laws.


Yes, he was a great example wasn't he?

Somewhere in the bible he also says give to Caesar what is Caesars and says things about obeying the law of the governments in place.


Yes and you might want to read Romans 13 which says:

"Everyone must submit himself to the government authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling aginst what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore it is necessary to submit to the authorities not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience....."

Many places in scripture it says God puts the leaders in their places. He also takes them out via the laws as he did here in Saddam's case.

That being said - we must live by the laws of man and live by the laws of the word of god, the two can lived side by side --- carefully!


as long as man's law is God's law, yes this most definitely can be done and done very successfully. The problem is man doesn't like God's laws for the most part. That's why we have the Saddam's of the world.

If this is the case - why does the Catholic Church not agree with capital punishment and try to influence the governments in play? What gives the Church the right (not the word I wanted) to impose their own man interpreted belief onto society?


you may want the Doc or Lula (both Catholic) to answer this one.

...at least I can admit I'm snotty...


good, as you should.......LOL.




on Dec 30, 2006
trolling
on Dec 30, 2006
If this is the case - why does the Catholic Church not agree with capital punishment and try to influence the governments in play? What gives the Church the right (not the word I wanted) to impose their own man interpreted belief onto society?

I was hoping to read the actual comments made by representatives of the Holy See before replying to Sean's initial essay and following comments. I've scoured the net trying to find the quotes, but haven't been successful.

According to the constant teaching of the CC, God Himself has ordained that legitimate civil authority shall have the right and duty to punish deliberate murder with the penalty of death. Capital Punishment honors the 5th Commandment because it vindicates the sanctity of human life. The Fifth Commandment forbids suicide, euthanasia, self mutiliation or undergoing mutiliation voluntarily and abortion. Just war and the death penalty come under self-defense of an individual or society. The 5th Commandment is concerned with human life. Restricted, it might seem to forbid the taking of human life under any circumstances but we know from history and common sense that under certain circumstances the killing of another is justifiable. Murder is the unjust taking of life.

The CC recognizes the circumstances that justify the taking of human life. Just as the individual must set aside the 5th C. when attacked and must defend himself, so does society in most times and places defend itself by the death penalty against criminals who betray its law and murders.

Again, even though I haven't read the statement from the Vatican, I imagine that if flows with the spirit of Christianity that is always on the side of leniency, unless in circumstances where leniency can only prove an encouragement to crime. In this case, at least for me, it's 50 % either way. I'm OK with Iraq's decision to execute Hussein and would also have been OK with him languishing in a mean prison cell the rest of his life. I do believe that knowing when one is about to die, then that murderer has an opportunity to repent of his sins, while the murderer waiting out life in prison may never do so.

The bigger question is if there was any way that society (in this case Iraq) could have protected itself without imposing the death penalty, then certainly it should have.

Both the Catechism of the Council of Trent and the 2nd edition of the Catechism of the CC teach the death penalty protects the sanctity of life through legitimate legal vengence to repress outrage and violence in society. The Catechism references to the civil sword evokes St. Paul's teaching on divine right of civil authority to avenge wrong doing by the sword. Roman 13:4. St. Thomas Aquinas teaches that capital punishment imitates divine justice; for after all, eternal damnation is the ultimate form of capital punishment. Also, Dismas, the Good Thief on the Cross was given the death penalty by crucification and he repented of his crime and for that Christ it would seem gave him immediate entry into Paradise. St. Luke 23:39-42.

More later ...family duties are calling.


on Dec 30, 2006
The implication was that some 'religious' people should do the same.(just admit it.)


I know LW....I got it okay?

But thanks for explaining it to me. You're the best!

on Dec 30, 2006
I think it's more than that Lula. Yes, sancity of life is part of it, but it goes deeper. Here's where it all started..in Genesis 9:5-6

5 And murder is forbidden. Animals that kill people must die, and any person who murders must be killed. 6 Yes, you must execute anyone who murders another person, for to kill a person is to kill a living being made in God’s image.


The heart of the issue is this; we are made in the image of God. It's quite simple. The murderer had to suffer for his actions because it was a fundamental denial of the image of God in the one that was killed. So the person, in this case Saddam, who destroyed another being made in God's image in fact did violence to God himself. To God every human is sacred with worth and value that God himself had invested in the slain individual.

One thing that many don't realize is in the Hebrew language there is 7 verbs for kill. "Rasah" is restricted to deliberate and premeditated murder. This verb was not used for killing animals for food, defending oneself in an attack, accidental killings or even manslaughter.

Blood guilt pollutes the land and it must be cleansed by atonement and the only payment or atonement that can be made in such a case is by the life of the one who premeditated his act.

Since Saddam took a life made in the image of God his life as a murderer was owed to God.

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