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and Condi's response For The White House
Published on September 27, 2006 By Sean Conners aka SConn1 In Current Events
Over the weekend, news junkies were treated to a series of "back and forths" concerning former President Bill Clinton's interview with Fox news anchor Chris Wallace. Wallace, claiming e-mails had forced him to ask the questions, pressured Bill Clinton over what he did to stop terrorism and Al Quaeda during his tenure. Clinton resonded with emotion, pointing out where he tried, but regrettably failed. he also pointed out that his counterterrorism chief presented the next administration with their plan to stop Osama Bin Laden. Condelezza rice fired back, claiming that no such plan had been offered and that they were at least as aggressive on terrorism before 9/11 as the Clinton team.

which is true? Let's check some records....

According to the 9/11 commission, generally regarded as the primary source in looking for established and evidenced facts in matters concerning terrorism, shows us the following...

As the Clinton administration drew to a close, Clarke and his staff developed a policy paper of their own [which] incorporated the CIA’s new ideas from the Blue Sky memo, and posed several near-term policy options. Clarke and his staff proposed a goal to “roll back” al Qaeda over a period of three to five years …[including] covert aid to the Northern Alliance, covert aid to Uzbekistan, and renewed Predator flights in March 2001. A sentence called for military action to destroy al Qaeda command-and control targets and infrastructure and Taliban military and command assets. The paper also expressed concern about the presence of al Qaeda operatives in the United States.” [p. 197]

Clarke, who also worked for the Bush administration, wrote Condoleezza Rice a memo as soon as the Bush administration took office, stating, “[W]e urgently need…a Principals level review of the al Qida network.” His request was denied.

Hmmmmm....sounds like a plan to me. Score, Clinton 1 / White House 0

But what about Clinton's claim that the Bush administration was neglegent in dealing with terrorism and more focused on their own agenda, topped by "anti-ballistic" missile defense plans that were popular in the cold war, which had ended a decade before.?

Here, there is lots of evidence to support Clinton's claim. Read on...

Bush Said “Most Urgent Threat” Was Ballistic Missiles. In a speech on May 1, 2001, Bush said, “Unlike the Cold War, today’s most urgent threat stems not from thousands of ballistic missiles in the Soviet hands, but from a small number of missiles in the hands of these states, states for whom terror and blackmail are a way of life.” [Bush, 5/1/01](thinkprogress.org)

also...

Bush’s Priorities Did Not Include Al Qaeda. “After his first meeting with NATO heads of state in Brussels in June 2001, Bush outlined the five top defense issues discussed with the closest U.S. allies. Missile defense was at the top of the list, followed by developing a NATO relationship with Russia, working in common purpose with Europe, increased defense spending in NATO countries, and enlarging the alliance to include former East European countries. The only reference to extremists was in Macedonia, where Bush said regional forces were seeking to subvert a new democracy.” [Washington Post, 4/1/04]

Frank Gaffney, conservative columnist, showed where the priorities were in his column on March 13, 2001, entitled "The Bush Doctrine"...


For example, last week he served notice on South Korean President Kim Dae Jung that the latter's so-called "Sunshine Policy" of detente with North Korea could not be safely pursued with a regime in Pyongyang that was an unreliable partner in disarmament and other agreements. He pointedly contradicted Communist China's lies concerning the involvement of its nationals in beefing up Saddam's air defense network -- so as to make it a more lethal threat to American personnel patrolling Iraq's skies. And he has explicitly condemned the genocide-, terrorist- and slavery-sponsoring regime in Sudan. More to the point, President Bush is appointing experienced individuals to key Defense and State Department posts who have for three years urged the United States to recognize a provisional government of Free Iraq and strip Saddam's regime of the trappings of international legitimacy. While the messages sent by various statements about "smart sanctions" and renewing international inspections of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction programs have been confusing, to say the least, the sorts of steps long advocated by senior members of the new Bush team would -- if adopted as part of a comprehensive effort -- have the greatest chance of undermining and ultimately bringing an end to the Iraqi despot's hold on power. Other enemies of freedom around the world are also worthy targets of a Bush Doctrine challenging their legitimacy. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, Russia's Vladimir Putin, Libya's Muamar Quadafi, Cuba's Fidel Castro and Venezuela's Hugo Chavez come to mind.

Less than a week before 9/11 the emphisis was all on missile defense and what the russians were up to...

If enough legislators are rattled or bamboozled by the cacophony of arguments against missile defense, they may vote to cut or otherwise hobble Mr. Bush's missile defense program. That would have a decidedly pernicious effect on the Russians. As former SDI director and arms control negotiator Amb. Henry Cooper has noted, the Kremlin will have no further incentive to agree jointly to end the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty regime that precludes development, testing and deployment of effective U.S. missile defenses. This would compel the President to proceed, as he has vowed to do, unilaterally. The moment of truth on missile defense has arrived. Congress should not be distracted from the historic task at hand of defending America by those whose efforts to bleed the Bush anti-missile program to death risk a far bloodier fate for all of us.

and of course, the Iraq issue was viewed like this before 9/11....

At his press conference last Thursday, President Bush reiterated a commitment he has made repeatedly in recent months: Saddam Hussein will not be allowed to have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). As the President put it: "The primary goal is to make it clear to Saddam that we expect him to be a peaceful neighbor in the region and we expect him not to develop weapons of mass destruction. And if we find him doing so, there will be a consequence."

Frank then stirs the nuclear rumours around...

it appears his arsenal includes more than just chemical and biological arms. Dreadful as these are, the Butcher of Baghdad may also have acquired atomic and perhaps even thermonuclear weapons, as well. It has been universally recognized that, given the well-established state of Iraq's chemical and biological weapons programs before Operation Desert Storm and the international inspections that followed it, Saddam could resume production of various toxic chemical agents and strains of lethal viruses in fairly short order once he forced the withdrawal of inspectors with a mandate to conduct intrusive on-site monitoring. (This actually was the best-case assessment; given the comprehensive secretiveness and inveterate deviousness of the Iraqi regime, it is entirely possible that its covert programs in these areas were actually never suspended.) Of even greater concern, however, was the prospect that -- left to his own devices -- Saddam would quickly reconstitute his bid to build at least crude atomic weapons. If a report in the Sunday Times of London is accurate, however, Saddam already has as many as three such weapons and perhaps as many as three of the far more powerful thermonuclear ones. The Times article, entitled "Was this Saddam's Bomb?" draws upon a wealth of circumstantial evidence and debriefings of Iraqi defectors

But Gaffney is confident the new team will take decisive action against Iraq...

As National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice put it on Thursday: "The President made clear when he was running for President that he did not believe that the Comprehensive Test Ban treaty furthered the non-proliferation goals that we do think are extremely important because it was not verifiable, because it didn't include certain parties, and because it certainly did nothing about the states that we are most concerned about...." Any further thought of resuscitating this treaty should now be moot. Finally, these revelations -- taken together with other evidence that Saddam is back in the weapons of mass destruction business -- oblige Mr. Bush to make good his threat that there will be "consequences." Fortunately, many of his senior advisors (including Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Secretary of Defense-designate Paul Wolfowitz, Deputy Secretary of State-designate Richard Armitage, Under Secretary of State-designate John Bolton, Under Secretary of Defense-designate Dov Zakheim and a number of others said to be under consideration for top posts [notably, Zalmay Khalilzad, Jeffrey Gedmin and Douglas Feith]) have developed a blue-print for such consequences.

Gaffney wrote dozens of columns in 2001 before September 11th. Over and over again he praises the Bush team for ignoring treaties, trying to build more missles to fight russia and china with and like the administration, had been itching to go back to Iraq since 1991. Gaffney, in his columns is confident, if not smug about the prospects of taking Saddam out before 9/11 based on false evidence and lies.

Not once, during the administrations 1st 8 months in office, does the conservative mouthpiece for the administration mention Osama Bin laden or terrorism as any kind of threat, or even at all.

It was clear where this administration's priorities were, and where they were not.

Score Clinton 2 / White House 0

In looking around, I have yet to find any references by the administration pre-9/11 to Al Quaeda or Osama Bin Laden. I have checked dozens of conservative columnists, the speeches given by the president and senior officials and can find absolutely nothing. When Clinton did take military action against Bin Laden, he was criticized of "wagging the dog" by many republicans, including some in congress.

Bill wins, hands down.








Comments (Page 2)
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on Sep 28, 2006
Clinton was set up for failure. He has spent his poltical life only appearing with interviewers who agree to keep lobbing softballs. He was actually put in a position where he wasn't given a prearranged question. He lost his cool because he was pissed off that someone dare challenge him intellectually.

Poor guy didn't know what hit him.... the truth. Unfamiliar territory for the bit of scum.
on Sep 28, 2006
He has spent his poltical life only appearing with interviewers who agree to keep lobbing softballs.

got anything to back that up? or is that just a GOP talking point?

Unfamiliar territory for the bit of scum.

calling a president of the united states scum,,,how unamerican of ya, not to mention just plain low class...and again, has nothing to do with the issues.

despite what you think, there's a whole hell of a lot of people who think Bill's reaction was appropriate, if not overdue. but anyway, how he reacted has nothing to do with the issues raised by him or me.

next...
on Sep 28, 2006

Okay, one more try...

Sean, the reason your argument isn't compelling is stuff like this from your article:

Clarke, who also worked for the Bush administration, wrote Condoleezza Rice a memo as soon as the Bush administration took office, stating, “[W]e urgently need…a Principals level review of the al Qida network.” His request was denied.

Hmmmmm....sounds like a plan to me. Score, Clinton 1 / White House 0

I don't know how educated you are but a memo is not a plan.  It's this kind of "reasoning" throughout your post that leaves us with little to refute. How can anyone refute someone who thinks a memo requesting a review as being a terrorist plan?

It's that kind of thinking that one can assume leads you to think that your article was "pushed down" due to your ahem brilliant analysis rather than the fact that we feature new articles most every days.

on Sep 28, 2006
the memo was to discuss the plan, no one is alledging that the memo itself was the plan. ya wanna apologize for the educational insult now? or are ya gonna backpedal on calling me stupid now too?

and the push down thing was a joke, notice the "lol"

wanna apologize for that error in thinkin as well?

still just rhetoric, nonsense and now insults and telling me how i think when you are obviously dead wrong.

still no evidence to refute the claims made.

on Sep 28, 2006
draginol has a point seanconners. a memo is not a plan. it's more akin to a reminder. or a bringing one's attention to some salient point. a plan is.. well it's more of a detailed proposal, non? perhaps an actual example might be of help.

www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-c-johnson/condi-rice-liar-stupid_b_30511.html

now.. the strategy. that would be a plan. the one that condileezza never received. and the memo.. well, as you have already observed it speaks for itself really.
on Sep 28, 2006
draginol has a point seanconners. a memo is not a plan.

i think i answered this one above. maybe we were postin at the same time, i dunno...
on Sep 28, 2006
indeed you did seanconners. my poor attempt at irony. i thought perhaps some actual evidence might settle the issue.
on Sep 28, 2006
As the Clinton administration drew to a close, Clarke and his staff developed a policy paper of their own [which] incorporated the CIA’s new ideas from the Blue Sky memo, and posed several near-term policy options. Clarke and his staff proposed a goal to “roll back” al Qaeda over a period of three to five years]…[including] covert aid to the Northern Alliance, covert aid to Uzbekistan, and renewed Predator flights in March 2001. A sentence called for military action to destroy al Qaeda command-and control targets and infrastructure and Taliban military and command assets. The paper also expressed concern about the presence of al Qaeda operatives in the United States.” [p. 197]

just to clear this up,,,the paragraph that draginol omitted was the one more about the plan. the memo was to discuss the plan.
on Sep 28, 2006
i liked this from the article...i tend not to use the huffington post as a source very often, as people round here would just scream liberal bias...but there's no spinning these facts....thanks:)

So, did Condi immediately convene a meeting of the Principals (i.e., President, Vice President, Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, etc)? NO. She waited until September 4, 2001.Did the Bush Administration adopt the position that "al Qida network poses a first order threat"? NO. Did Condi immediately decide on whether to modify or strengthen the "existing strategy" for taking on Al Qaeda? NO. Condi kicked the can down the road.Condi can play all of the lawyerly word games she likes, but the cold facts expose her dissembling. Dealing with Al Qaeda did not become a priority for the Bush Administration until the morning of September 11, 2001. No effort to retaliate against Al Qaeda for the USS Cole bombing was made until after 9-11. The real irony is that the Bush Administration, in the wake of 9-11, implemented a plan/strategy very similar to the one Dick Clarke gave Condi in January 2001. So, Condi? Liar or stupid? You decide.
on Sep 29, 2006

the memo was to discuss the plan, no one is alledging that the memo itself was the plan. ya wanna apologize for the educational insult now? or are ya gonna backpedal on calling me stupid now too?

No, I defintely think you're pretty dumb or at least very very young.  And you clearly were asserting that the memo was evidence of a plan.

If you don't know what a plan is, just say so. The policy paper you are referring to (but probably have no idea what it is since you're just regurgitating) was a 14 page paper written by Clarke in 1999.

Quoting left-wing sites as "proof" is exactly the kind of thing that undermines what you write because it seems clear you don't really understand what you are talking about. You have a conclusion you want to reach and simply reach out to like minded people to copy and paste their arguments.

For the record, I don't think Clinton did anything wrong while in office with regards to terrorism. Hindsight is 20/20. But some of the claims he made on his interview were false.  I don't care what Condi Rice said or didn't say because I think Bush was no better on terrorism before 9/11.

 

on Sep 29, 2006
perhaps you did not articulate your argument in simple enough terms seanconners. as far as i can see the policy paper you refer to with the 'roll back of the al quaeda' is exactly the same as the strategy pdf on the huffington post link. i have no problems discerning the difference between that and the memo you refer to and the distinction that you were making. clinton did provide a strategy. the bush administration were informed - via the memo - in no uncertain terms about the seriousness of the al qaeda threat.

reading comprehension, it would appear is relative.

perhaps that goes some way to explaining why draginol appears a little confused on exactly what he himself means. on the one hand he asserts categorically in regard to clinton: "2) That he provided the next administration a comprehensive plan to deal with Al Qaeda. He didn't."

in fact he authoratively states that position twice. and then he claims not to care what condoleezza rice who herself categorically denied also that there was a strategy. twice. once in front of the 9/11 commission. and of course more recently.

one can't have it both ways. either there was a strategy plan.. or there was not a strategy plan. condoleezza is either stupid or a liar. which is it for you draginol?
on Sep 29, 2006
No, I defintely think you're pretty dumb or at least very very young. And you clearly were asserting that the memo was evidence of a plan.


ok, ya wanna name call idiot? the MEMO was a request to discuss the plan...again your idiotic arrogance has caused you to read it wrong.

there is one paragraph from the 9/11 commission report, (page 197) that describes the plan clarke put together and happened during the end of bill's term. then there is the 2nd seperate paragraph refferring to the contact clarke had with rice in the 2nd administration. 1 part plan, 1 part trying to present it.

nothing is as you are trying to frame it drag,,,nice try tho!

next....
on Sep 29, 2006
thanks for your assistance mr roberts, whomever you are, lol....
on Sep 29, 2006
How can anyone refute someone who thinks a memo requesting a review as being a terrorist plan?

then you change your story...

I defintely think you're pretty dumb or at least very very young. And you clearly were asserting that the memo was evidence of a plan.

drag,,,apologize, move on...i am right, you are wrong, period.

everything you are saying is nonsense...you read something wrong and now you are trying to cover that up by calling me names.

btw, i'm pushin 40 and i'll put my educational experience up with anyone. btw,,,as far as i can tell , i'm the only one around here with the BALLS to use my own name instead of an alias. i stand behind my words 100%. most here are just 3rd rate bullies hiding behind aliases and keyboards.
one more note...i do mean what i said in the other post in which we were engaged in the discussion and found common ground. that is much more productive than trying to nitpick me and take innacurate interretations and blame me for them. the whole point of this was for someone, anyone to show what bush did pre 9/11. one CAN argue that maybe bill didn't break out the military early or often enough. but to say that he was lax is a lie. i believe there were other factors in that and because no one really attacked our "homeland" sans the 93 WTC attack (and the bombers are sittin in prison today) but that is the charge made by the right, that bill alone wouldn't do anything, while those around him tried to get action. the records show a clear priority with terrorism, even before "al queda" was even on the map or had a recognized name. there is also a clear pattern as far as i can tell that when the bush team came in, the priority dropped. why? because anyone who wasn't living under a rock in 2000-2001 should remember the massive "we're gonna reverse everything slick willie did" attitude. that attitude was bolstered at the RNC convention in 2000 and the bush team had their own millitary agenda. the bush team has gotten a "free pass" on this from the american people. when ABC and Disney did the bidding of the right wing and aired those lies, dressed up in an educational program (yes it was, including propoganda to be distributed by Scholastic Inc.) that free pass was taken away. so, once again, if anyone can show me where condi's statement that they were "at least as aggresive before 9/11" on terrorism and al quaeda , please show me. but drag, your name calling and misjudgements of me are making you look like a fool....if that's what you are goin for, keep it up.
on Sep 30, 2006

perhaps that goes some way to explaining why draginol appears a little confused on exactly what he himself means. on the one hand he asserts categorically in regard to clinton: "2) That he provided the next administration a comprehensive plan to deal with Al Qaeda. He didn't."

Let's parse this as simply as possible:

Clinton claims that a plan on how to deal with terrorism was developed and past on during his administration.

That claim is false. The only thing that was passed on was a 14 page policy paper that had been sitting around for over 2 years. If you think a plan to deal with terrorism can fit on 14 pages then I'll refer you to what I said to Sean "Yes, I definitely think you're dumb."

Add a 0 to the end of 14 and then you might be at the start of what could be considered a "plan".  A book report might be 14 pages. An essay might be 14 pages. A plan to deal with terrorism is not 14 pages.

As for Sean..

drag,,,apologize, move on...i am right, you are wrong, period.

Okay, here's the thing Sean. Dumb people or children are usually the ones who insist they are right. I.e. to actualy insist that their opinion is the "correct" opinion and declare victory comes across as infantile and is usually unpersuasive. Especially when you seem unable to even explain what exactly I am wrong about.

I also didn't call you an idiot. I simply think you're kind of..well dumb.   I think that you are dumb not just because you don't seem to be able to make a coherent argument or grasp what other people write but also because you don't seem to be able able to communicate in writing.  You don't use paragraphs, you don't use proper punctuation, you can barely spell, heck you don't even capitalize. It's just one long chain of thought. 

I rarely if ever make an issue of how people spell or use grammar since we all make mistakes, but reading your reponses is painful because it's so hard to get through giant paragraphs of run-on sentences with horrific grammar.

I mean, look at that last paragraph you have there. It starts by saying how you are almost 40 years old. Then somewhere in the middle it moves into complaining about people using handles on forums, then it goes off and insists that this article was about what Bush did pre 9/11 (despite the article's title being about Clinton's claims), then we get into the RNC 2000 convention, and even a swipe at Scholastic.

It's like arguing with Grandpa Simpson or something.

I will requote what I wrote:

Clinton's claims:

1) That he drew up "battle plans" plans to invade Afghanistan. He didn't.

2) That he provided the next administration a comprehensive plan to deal with Al Qaeda. He didn't.

3) That he did "Everything in his power" to take out Bin Laden.  He didn't.

4) That Republicans claimed he was "obsessed" with getting Bin Laden. They didn't.

5) That Republicans forced him out of Somalia.  They didn't.

Your response to this was to insist that I'm "wrong". 

When someone tries to say that a 14 page paper constitutes a "plan" in the context of what we're talking about here I can only conclude that you either aren't old enough yet to understand what is involved in putting together such plans (think hundreds of pages) or you are too inexperienced in this area to understand that a 14 page paper is basically an essay/article on what an analyst thinks should be done.  But it's not a plan.

A plan to deal with an international terrorist organization should be at least as big as say the business plan for a small company or the user manual of a video game. And in fact, they are. Hence, arguing that a policy paper is the same as a plan to deal with terrorism is foolishness.

And that doesn't even touch on the fact that he completely invented the claim about having a battle plan to deal with the Taliban. That was totally out of thin air.

Item #3 is obviously false since they did have opportunities to take out Bin Laden.

Item #4 we're still waiting for someone to name a single elected Republican say Clinton was "obsessed" with Bin Laden.

Item #5 is blatantly untrue - absurdly untrue as history is pretty clear on that matter and the Republicans had no way to make Clinton get out of Somalia.  (Republicans wanted retaliation against the warlord, not cut and run).

The point being: You wrote an article entitled "The truth of Clinton's claims".  I listed 5 claims Clinton made in the interview that are false.  And you can't even concede that a 14 page policy paper is not a plan. 

I'm NOT trying to nitpick you.  I watched the Clinton interview and was simply astonished at his claims.  And as I've stated, I think Condi's claims that Bush was taking terrorism seriously in the first 8 months is equally ridiculous. NOBODY in power was taking it seriously in either party.

As for my characterizations of you and how they make me look, I hate to tell you this but I don't really operate on what something makes me look like.  I would say my characterizations make me look like an arrogant jerk not a fool since I'm pretty confident that anyone even remotely familiar with this issue is going to have the same view as I do with respect to Clinton's claims during his FoxNews interview.  But I also think many of them would think that while I"m factually correct, that I'm being a jerk for being so arrogant about it.  But not a fool.  

The problem is that you'll not likely persuade most rational readers as long as your writing is so poor.

Debates work as follows:

Assertion.

Evidence.

Analysis.

Conclusion.

By contrast, your arguments are usually just a long train of thought that doesn't seem to go anywhere.  I presented 5 explicit examples of Clinton's claims that were not true and you haven't even explained WHY you think I'm incorrect.  Instead, we get "everything you are saying is nonsense..."

 

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